Giving it a shot again...

[Kelmych]

Unfortunately there has not been significant community involvement in providing bash tags to LOOT for Fallout 3. LOOT provides what users have submitted, and there haven't been any checks on the tags that LOOT has. Almost all the bash tag entries in LOOT were added before the Generate Bash Tags script became available. For anything other than major mods I don't currently trust the LOOT has tag recommendations, and the lack of a particular bash tag in LOOT doesn't mean that it shouldn't be there it just means that the user who uploaded the tags to LOOT didn't include it which may or may not be correct. The Generate Bash Tags script is very useful, but it takes time with each mod to determine which tags should be removed and noone has had the time to do this for a large set of mods to a fairly old game.

[JUNKdeLUXE]

so it's roll the dice and hope you choose the right bash tags? No wonder people are having problems with Fallout 3 then :(

 

Is there any kind of general rule that can be applied? or is it endless trial and errors with playing the game and starting over when running in to problems?

By general rules, I mean for Clear and Present Danger.. I don't care about any other mods outside of this. I just want THIS to work.

[JUNKdeLUXE]

and if there are no general rules to bash tagging (which seems pretty important from the research I did into this field) how do you expect anyone can install your guide correctly?

[Kelmych]

The rule for bash tagging is to give a plugin the bash tags that are appropriate (any plugin that changes a record that is one of the record types for the particular bash tag). The exception is when it would overwrite records in plugins that are actually intended to provide the record. To start with it is important to have hash tags for the major mods; LOOT generally has proper values for these. Initially the bash tags for smaller mods could be excluded until they are tested; there aren't that many small mods in the guide that cause significant compatibility problems (by design and selection of mods included in the guide).

 

The other problem is that bash tags only cover a portion of the conflict types, so some (hopefully not too large) manual tags are often needed anyway.

[JUNKdeLUXE]

Okay, now you have me genuinely confused (and quite frankly I'm a bit irritated now). I have no idea how to complete my current install of Clear and Present Danger. You say that the tags are important but you don't tell me which ones I need to use.. for YOUR guide.

 

 

Secondly you mentioned that:

 

 

 

The Generate Bash Tags script is very useful, but it takes time with each mod to determine which tags should be removed and noone has had the time to do this for a large set of mods to a fairly old game.

 

So if I'm reading between the lines, you are saying "DON'T USE THE SCRIPT UNLESS YOU KNOW WHAT TO DO". I would REALLY have loved that information BEFORE i wasted 4 hours yesterday doing exactly that, documenting my findings along the way in this very thread.

 

If something is not recommended, either have a warning about it, or don't include it in a guide that's supposed to tell you how to install your compilation.
 

 

 

It still doesn't help me though. I've done the rest of your - otherwise amazing - guide to the best of my abilities. I've posted all the problem areas along the way. Some you've answered, but there are still some you havn't. I'm guessing you havn't seen them yet. But now I'm at the end of this long journey and now I can't complete it because you don't have the information for me to do so.

 

If the guide require us to do our own research, trial and error in certain places where the install guide is greyish, then again.. I would have LOVED this information BEFORE I wasted a month.

 

 

 

So... What do I do now. What are YOUR recommendations (on Bash Tags and the unanswered question in this thread) on how to complete YOUR guide?

 

 

 

 

 

 

ps. Yes, I know I sound harsh, but that's because I can't get answers.

[Kelmych]

You can use the script. There aren't many tags that needed to be removed, and even if you use the script without removing some tags the differences are usually fairly small. None of the STEP guides have complete compatibility patches or bash tag lists. The Skyrim guide relies on LOOT for tags; Skyrim is new enough that it's probably adequate. Skyrim Revisited has a fairly detailed patch, primarily for the lighting conflicts. There isn't a full compatibility patch for FO3 because only a few of the mods need it and because it's quite time consuming. The only mods that need any notable compatible patches are the weapon mods. The armor mods need a little but not much. The TWPC patches cover the majority of the compatibility patching needed for weapons, so in my game I use it. I need to use the mods it covers, of course.

 

With any of the Bethesda games you can never solve all the compatibility problems, but as long as they are reduced to the point where they don't have a significant impact it's ok.

[JUNKdeLUXE]

Wonderful! Thank you ☺ï¸

 

I needed some reassurance that the work I've done actually is correct.

 

I don't "care" about 100% compatibility, but I do care that the game won't crash endlessly when I finally start putting some hours into it.

[JUNKdeLUXE]

Just listing the questions that still doesn't have an answer yet, in case you have overseen them:

 

 

1.

 

Quote

 The Wasteland Patch Collection

• Author: Deadmano
• Version: v1.4
• Notes: This mod includes a set of patches to improve mod compatibility; many of these patches address compatibility among mods in this guide. For example, one of the patches restores some subrecords from UPDATED Unofficial Fallout 3 Patch andFWE - FO3 Wanderers Edition that are not included in Descriptive Icons for Fallout 3. If multiple patches are installed from this mod it is recommend that Merge Plugins xEdit Script is used to combine the patches in the mod to reduce plugin count.

Since the patches are loaded after the bashed patch to prevnt problems with Wrye Bash, any FormID list or Leveled List subrecords from other mods not included in lists contained in the patches will need to be manually inserted into these lists with xEdit or they won't be used. Pne example of this is that the Zealotlees ACR won't be in the list of weapons available to Supermutants. The TWPC patches add all the plugins needed by a patch to the list of master plugins for a patch even though some of these are not actually master plugins. This was done to help users remember which plugins are needed for use of the patch even through some aren't actually master files. This has unfortunately caused a lot of confusion among users of the patches. These show up in MO when you right click the plugin in the right pane of MO. Some of them like diff.esp are not actually masters so the game itself ignores this addition. Since they are not actually masters the game itself will ignore this addition. If desired, open a TWPC plugin in xEdit, right click and use the Clean Masters command it will remove these falsely-labeled master plugins that are not actually masters. There is no need to try to add these additions elsewhere with Wrye Flash or xEdit. These falsely-labeled master plugins can safely be eliminated (if desired) when merging plugins with Wrye Flash or in the plugins included when using the Merge Plugins xEdit Script.

 

 Red emphasis mine..

 

Okay.. I'd love to do that... how? :)

 

 

 

2.

Quote

 

 

eXcalibr - ammo eXpansion pack

Core 

LowRes 

• Author: Earache42
• Version: v2.3
• Requirements: CALIBR (installed as part of FWE - FO3 Wanderers Edition )
• Fallout NV Equivalent: CaliberX a port of the mod to FNV.
• Installation: Get and install the "eXcalibr_Ammo_Pack_v2-3_Full_FOMOD" main file.

If the external fomod installer is used (not typically needed with MO 1.3.x) there are two Override options; do not install these. After the main mod is installed install the "Weapons patch for 20th Century Weapons" and [Merge] it with the main file. Double click the mod in the left pane of MO and move CALIBR.esm to Optional ESPs; FWE provides this plugin.

The greatest bullet mod ever created.

 

If not installing the 20th Century Weapons mod does one need the "Weapons patch for 20th Century Weapons" ?!?  It's written as if it's needed no matter what.

 

 

3.

Quote

 

 

K9 Breeds - Random dog breeds for Fallout 3

MedRes 

• Author: hikky71
• Version: v1.1
• Notes: Randomizes the appearance for nearly all dogs (except Dogmeat) so there are 40 variants of how dogs look in the game.
• Installation: Get the main file and install with MO.

Now all dogs won't be exactly the same!

 

This mod includes a compatibility file called:

 

• K9BreedsPatchMMM.esp

 

For compatibilty with Mart's Mutant Mod. This extra esp file is not installed though as the fomod (I'm guessing) checks for installed mods at this time MMM hasn't been installed yet.

 

Is this file needed?

 

 

4.

Quote

Dynamic Weather

• Author: Xepha
• Version: v3.0
• Notes: In conjunction with Enhanced Weather this mod adds rain, sand storms, more weather variation, and sneak bonuses that depend on weather conditions.
• Installation: The file is not packaged in a way that it can easily be installed.

Install the mod normally with MO, and get the optional "Dynamic Weather - Green Tint Remover" file installing it on top of the main file with [Merge]
Right click the mod in the left pane of MO, select Open in Explorer, and open the Optional Files folder.
Open the "Dynamic Weather - Weather Machine" folder and drag all the files to the top level Dynamic Weather folder.
Do the same for the Dynamic Weather - Sandstorms, Dynamic Weather - Rain, and Dynamic Weather - Dynamic Sneak Bonus folders.
Open the Dynamic Weather - DLC folder and drag the Xepha's Dynamic Weather - Main + DLC Merged.esp to the top level Dynamic Weather folder.
Go back to the top level folder and delete the Optional Files folder and Xepha's Dynamic Weather - Main.esp.
Close the Explorer window.
Double click the mod in the left pane of MO and select the Optional ESPs tab.
Move the Xepha's Dynamic Weather - Weather Machine (Quest Added).esp to Optional ESPs, the quest takes place in an area that is much too dangerous for low level players. Move either Xepha's Dynamic Weather - Weather Machine (Quest Added).esp or "Xepha's Dynamic Weather - Weather Machine (Start Game Added).espto Optional ESPs; for systems with limited CPU and GPU capability use only the Start Game added version of this plugin.
Move either Xepha's Dynamic Weather - Sandstorms + Armor Damage (FOSE).esp or Xepha's Dynamic Weather - Sandstorms.esp to Optional ESPs.
When running LOOT make sure that the Green tint remover plugin is very close to last.

 

Red emphasis mine
 
You mention that "Xepha's Dynamic Weather - Weather Machine (Quest Added).esp" should be moved to Optional ESP's twice. Did you mean "Xepha's Dynamic Weather - Weather Machine (Vendor Added).esp" instead in one of these mentions (the file is not mentioned anywhere else and thus is still in activated ESPs).

 

 

 

 

I think that was all :)

 

It's been a journey, that for sure. But hopefully I've helped show you where the guide could use some updating and I've had some suggestions of my own. I know I might have been a bit harsh and quite possibly a pain in the ass, but when you feel passionate about something, it tends to show.

Edited June 20, 2016 by JUNKdeLUXE