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some concerns about the community


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#16 hishutup

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 11:31 PM

As for networking for mods on other not so well known sites, maybe we can get some sweet mod picker integration, so that platform can be used to discover new things.

#17 Kailia

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Posted 09 April 2017 - 12:08 AM

As for networking for mods on other not so well known sites, maybe we can get some sweet mod picker integration, so that platform can be used to discover new things.

That sounds really awesome. Yeah wouldn't remove nexus out of the equation, because most all mods are on nexus. But would minimize using Nexus. And I'd still need to use nexus mod manager because I find it the easiest to use right now.


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#18 Greg

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Posted 09 April 2017 - 12:36 AM

All I'll say on this topic is that Nexus is not the place to have an intelligent, civilized discussion and I doubt it ever will be.



#19 JUNKdeLUXE

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Posted 09 April 2017 - 06:13 AM

Kailia are you Nilanius?



https://forums.nexus.../#entry49074627
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#20 soupdragon

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Posted 09 April 2017 - 07:47 AM

I will say that something like "Needless to say, Dark0ne and Nexus Mods have been losing my respect over the past year.  Now that they've gone as far as blanket censorship against me I think it's time to take further action.",
is a comment that I can see the nexus deleting for sure.
I don't disagree with what youre saying but I definitely don't agree either.
 
If you don't agree with what service the nexus is providing then its probably time to find some place new to lurk and post your files.
The problem with doing so is the discover-ability isn't there, but things are a little but different since you have mod picker. 
Currently, I use the Nexus service is to download, track and discover mods. Mod picker adds something new to the mix that solves the discovery problem. If it allows me to discover and track all mods then I'll probably switch to only use the Nexus for downloading mods.
 
 

I agree, but I find some humor in how the Nexus outright delete the posts rather than giving them a public warning.

I cannot recall a time where somewhere like step or reddit outright delete posts other than straight spam.

 

 

 

I work all day now, I don't have time to keep up on this stuff. The first thing I saw was how the moderation was being done and I didn't agree with it, so I started this thread for anyone and everyone to contribute to.

 

Reddit moderators will delete posts if they think it contravenes their TOS. There will be a [deleted] placeholder and a moderator comment underneath such as "Rule 1" or somesuch. As for the reason for mator's current suspension Dark0ne stated he'd be removing posts by him from that thread. Mator then continued repeatedly posting despite the warning and hence the infraction.

 

As for why he stated he's deleting his comments there is a long standing feud between mator and nexus and nexus's mod authors in general. Mator walked out in a huff from the mod author forums some time ago because he couldn't get what he wanted from them stating he wanted permanent removal from the place. He's since had threads locked or removed from Reddit for brigading against Arthmoor in particular and basically never misses a chance to rabble rouse or generally bad mouth Nexus, Dark0ne, or mod authors in general. Dark0ne in particular is tired of it and to be honest I can't blame him. As to whether its ethical to remove his quotes because he's tired of his "silliness" (to quote Dark0ne) well thats up to you to decide I guess.


Edited by soupdragon, 09 April 2017 - 07:58 AM.

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#21 Kailia

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Posted 09 April 2017 - 09:06 AM

Kailia are you Nilanius?



https://forums.nexus.../#entry49074627

Yep I am


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#22 JUNKdeLUXE

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Posted 09 April 2017 - 09:58 AM

Yep I am


Ahh.. no problem then. Just looked like a case of impersonation.
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#23 Kailia

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Posted 09 April 2017 - 10:24 AM

Ahh.. no problem then. Just looked like a case of impersonation.

Nope, it wasn't. And wow looking at that thread, apparently I am a bad person for siding against the mod author and even lumped in with the few who are rumored to of sent death threats. One thing I will never support or endorse, is death threats. People making them kinds of threats, in my opinion, are as bad as the mod author that copyright striked MXR's channel for reviewing their mod. It's part of bullying. She bullied with threats of injunctions and a lawyer who obviously doesn't know the law to make MXR backed down. They bullied to make her cut off all communications in the community. I do not agree with them tactics one bit.

 

But to be lumped in with that group, is beyond out of line. I've left that forum, not going to post there ever again but I did see your reply there which did lump me with the ones making them death threats. That wasn't right, and saying in a way that says the entire community death threated that author, that is slander and libel. If anything it was probably 1 or 2 kiddies that saw that video that didn't know better. You don't name the entire mod using community or the entire mxr subscriber base as "people from a community that has threatened to kill her.". As I said a moment ago, if people did threaten her like that, then they are just as guilty of bullying as she was. It's inexcusable and something I will never get behind.


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#24 JUNKdeLUXE

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Posted 09 April 2017 - 01:05 PM

Yeah... I wasn't in a good mood when I wrote that. Even though we have different opinions on this subject, I took it a bit too far.. for that I'm sorry.

 

I also believe or hope for an overall open modding community, but if people explicitly says they won't have their mods reviewed I would respect their wishes. Fair Use, Legality or whatever else has no meaning for me in this question. It's just a matter of adhering to the wishes of a small subset of modders.


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#25 Kailia

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Posted 09 April 2017 - 01:42 PM

Yeah... I wasn't in a good mood when I wrote that. Even though we have different opinions on this subject, I took it a bit too far.. for that I'm sorry.

 

I also believe or hope for an overall open modding community, but if people explicitly says they won't have their mods reviewed I would respect their wishes. Fair Use, Legality or whatever else has no meaning for me in this question. It's just a matter of adhering to the wishes of a small subset of modders.

I accept your apology. And I also believe in an overall open modding community. But at the same time, most of the world does protect critics and reviewers who go out, find something to review, and give their thoughts. The whole monetization had nothing to do with the product being reviewed, but for the reviewers thoughts and opinions. And a good chunk are popular and made money because they are paid not for the products they are reviewing, but for their own thoughts. This is a protected free speech. So I just maintain, of an author doesn't want their works reviewed, or criticized, then really, they have no business releasing such to the public.

 

When is use of material not fair use? Well Lets Play videos are people playing the game, not giving thoughts on the assets being used. In that case, if they are using a product for non-review purposes, aka, fair use, then that is not fair use. Lets Play videos should always ask for permission to feature a mod authors mods in their lets play before actually starting such. There was one channel I know about, where the lets play person, didn't get proper permission and one of their episodes got struck down. Sucked, but I can't blame one who struck it down.

 

And another series I watched, which belonged to world of warcraft, had one of their episodes axed, because they used a song without permission. And it was practically the entire song. Sucked but the song copyright holders had the right to do so. So when is it okay to go after a reviewer? Well if a reviewer does slander an author unjustly with false accusations, then yes, that reviewer can be gone after legally for libel. Especially if there's proof the reviewer was making stuff up. But in this case with MXR, he only did a very short segment talking about how cool he found the mod and the mod author went after him because she apparently doesn't understand that reviewers don't need permission to review a product, and that he wasn't being paid for the mod, just his thoughts. If anything, he was giving her free advertisements but she doesn't want her mod to become popular.

 

So that begs the question. Why? She had all the permissions from the authors she took from she said. Everything seemed legal about it. But some reason she didn't want the mod to be in any kind of spotlight. When MxR got to that mod, I didn't really find the mod interesting to be honest, and if I recall, that was towards the end of the video so I didn't really pay much attention to the mod itself. But I do enjoy hearing his thoughts. People like myself, we look for immersion when we get our mods. And that floating market, was immersion breaking for me so it held no interest to me. But, by going after his video like that, the author inadvertently put a spotlight on herself and her mod, making her situation worse. But as I said, I don't condone what the few who went after her with threats did. And I never will. I think the entire situation could of been handled better, and without lawyers. Maybe she could of simply brought attention to the situation on reddit or nexus forums. But by the sound of it, she sent him a message, but he didn't respond, and thus got lawyers and copyright striked him. And in the end, ended up taking her mod down anyways.

 

To me, it seemed like she saw he makes money doing reviews, and thinks instantly he was profiting off the mods he reviewed. Which isn't the case at all. He gets paid for his thoughts and ideals and how he acts in his videos. The ones paying him don't care what he is reviewing. They only look at view count, and how often and pay based off that. So this entire situation seems like a nasty misinterpretation. So my original post on nexus, which has been coming under attacks at me personally, was posted with good intention on my part. Trying to offer up ideas on how the damage could be undone. There's some that want her banned. There's some that just want her to undo the strike and allow the video to be up. Some even just want her to also apologize for starting this entire mess. I just know that her actions, is setting a dangerous trend in this community, and I don't want to see it tear itself apart. I love Skyrim, and I absolutely love the mods I got for Skyrim. And part of what helps this community, are mod reviews. Some people like MxR's videos. Some don't. But none can deny he is a mod reviewer. And reviewers can also fall under the category of news casters, as they bring attention to things people would not normally know about, and give their own thoughts on the things.

 

In the end, I think the modding community needs to just start respecting each other. Don't silence people because you don't like them. This goes to both sides of the isles of course. Striking MXR's video, was trying to silence him. And compounding that was threats of shutting his entire channel down. On the other side, we had immature people making death threats that are highly illegal and such, instead of being made public, should of been forwarded to the FBI so they could investigate and bring them to justice. And deleting/hiding/restricting peoples posts because one doesn't like the person... if I tried that same thing in a guild I ran, word would of spread, and my members would of left, and the guild would of died. Some video game developers were trying the same thing, they are going under or have gone under. Censorship is wrong.

 

And the reason I put that mod author on blacklist, is because I don't support her behavior, nor would I wish to download a mod from an author that causes problems within the community. Ideally when MXR brought up about the takedown, yeah word could of spread about it, and the mod author could of been boycotted by the community and drama would of been over. But some people chose to escalate it. THe mod author escalated it with long winded post in her mod take down reasoning. Some subscribers to MXR escalated with illegal death threats. And she rallied a few people on nexus to combat people who agreed that MXR had the legal right of fair use. And I read somewhere, that other mod authors who were featured in that episode 220, were also harassed because no one knew who the mod author that did it was. That, as well, was wrong. And it all began, because the mod author, for some reason, was worried about her mod being reviewed. There's still videos up, reviewing her mod by the way. But she chose to go after just MXR for reviewing it. It's a shame.


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#26 Kailia

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Posted 10 April 2017 - 01:44 AM

Seeing no edit button on my last post and finding a video on fair use, this I think explains much. Probably the biggest factor, in copyright holders who try to go against fair use, and what makes them loose, is "does the infringement negatively impact the copyright holder's ability to make money off their copyrighted work". Here's the video link:

 

 

When it comes to mods, and reviews, I have yet to see a single mod by any skyrim mod reviewer, get a negative review. Because they tend to screen out mods they don't like, and cover mods they do like. In the end, no, their reviews don't impact the authors ability to make money because for one, the mods are distributed for free, and if anything, the reviews are sending even more people to check that mod the author is distributing for free. No money is being lost, and the reviewer isn't being paid for the mod, they are being paid for their thoughts. As the video also said at the start, without these fair use laws and exceptions, every single person would be in violation of some kind of copyright. The only real solution though, is to get these laws rewritten into a definitive format where there are 0 questions on what a copyright holder can and cannot do.

 

However, I'm never going back over to Nexus or that thread I started. Far too many personal attacks for just the sheer fact that I was against the mod author's behavior. And they think a mod author can legally stop people from forming opinions of their mods and reviewing it. The problem lies in Youtube right now, as they made the copyright strike rules so exploitable, anyone can abuse it and are abusing it. Back before they changed these rules, youtube used common sense. If someone tried copyright striking a review video, youtube would likely laugh and send them on their way. Now that corporations own youtube, they remade their copyright strike rules exploitable for their own gains. Like a person could goto a channel, claim to be x company or whatever and claim the video violates their copyright and they end up taking all the funding from that video's author, to their own pockets.

 

Which is exactly what the mod author that copyright striked MXR did. She isn't mentioning that, but that is now how youtube works. The moment she took that video down, any money the video made, was shifted away from MXR and landed right in her pocket. That essentially is robbing his channel, and because of the threat of injuction if he dared fight it, and knowing full well he doesn't have the kind of money it would take to fight the unjustified flagging, he really had no alternative but to not fight it. When the system is rigged in favor of businesses to exploit and abuse copyright as this case showed, there's something wrong with the system and it needs to be fixed. And it's not just MXR who was hit. Many channels are being hit with bogus claims of infringements. Several anime review videos had to fight bogus strikes and every single one of them strikes failed and after figuring out where the strikes were coming from, they had to region restrict their videos so the false flaggers could not do that again.

 

Bottom line: Mod authors aren't selling their mods, they are allowing the public to download them for free. Public domain. And just like with books, once a mod is out there, there is a limit to what you can do beyond that. People are free to review books, read them as bed time stories for their kids, use them for educational purposes, and in many cases, sell them to used book stores. But mods are digital, and thus, cannot be sold. Digital works CAN though, be reviewed, as long as credit to the author is given, which it was, and a link to where to find it legally was supplied. What MXR can do, is the same thing anime and movie reviewers have started doing: Putting up a fair use disclaimer on all his videos from this time forward.


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#27 TechAngel85

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Posted 10 April 2017 - 09:00 AM

As I'm reading the Nexus thread, it's becoming more and more obvious that I need to finish my work on the Open Modding Agreement (OMA). It's a middle-ground permissions agreement that author can choose to adopt for their mods. The OMA sits in the middle between the cathedral and parlor views and is meant to bridge the gap by being fair to both view points.

 

Under the OMA authors are required to maintain reasonable specifics, else the mod falls into free-use for any and all. An example would be simply being active on the mod page within a 180 day time frame. So with the OMA, if an author lets their mod sit for 6 months without answering comments (ignoring user activity), posting news, updating the mod, etc, then the mod is considered abandoned. This forces some responsibility on the mod author to maintain their mods. If they simply want to make a mod and post it for use with open rights, under the OMA they can do this as well. With the OMA there is choice and everyone is happy.



#28 Kailia

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Posted 10 April 2017 - 10:19 AM

As I'm reading the Nexus thread, it's becoming more and more obvious that I need to finish my work on the Open Modding Agreement (OMA). It's a middle-ground permissions agreement that author can choose to adopt for their mods. The OMA sits in the middle between the cathedral and parlor views and is meant to bridge the gap by being fair to both view points.

 

Under the OMA authors are required to maintain reasonable specifics, else the mod falls into free-use for any and all. An example would be simply being active on the mod page within a 180 day time frame. So with the OMA, if an author lets their mod sit for 6 months without answering comments (ignoring user activity), posting news, updating the mod, etc, then the mod is considered abandoned. This forces some responsibility on the mod author to maintain their mods. If they simply want to make a mod and post it for use with open rights, under the OMA they can do this as well. With the OMA there is choice and everyone is happy.

That sounds really awesome. I know there's one mod that's not been updated in years, that I use that allows upgrading skyforge steel swords and greatswords. But I wish it included daggers. But the mod author has basically abandoned it, and even said in the comments section that others are welcome to expand on it.


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#29 Kailia

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Posted 27 April 2017 - 12:31 PM

So I replied one more time to that thread, didn't attack Tarshana, only stating what I know is the law, and I got accused of cyber bullying, and told that MXR stuck his fans on Tarshana and told them to threaten her, harass her, etc, which is an outright lie. In the end that thread is now locked. Oh well, I tried to have a calm debate and right away folks came at me with hostility. Even linked a video that accurately talked about the entire situation. But at least that thread showed me who on nexus, I want nothing to do with. The ones accusing me of bullying and harassing, when I did no such thing.


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