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#1 fortunequacker

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Posted 15 July 2017 - 08:54 AM

Latest Build (16241) Incompatible with Mod Organizer 1

 

MO  is a tool for organizing mods for Bethesda games from Morrowind to Skyrim, Fallout 3, New Vegas and Fallout 4, and others.  The build 16241 breaks this tool.  It uses a file, "hook.dll" to create symlinks between plugins stored in subfolders of a mod folder.  When the 32 bit games are launched these hooked symlinks fool the OS into using the mods as if they were all residing in the games data folder (i.e. where they would be normally).  This method allows for more advanced mod management and specifically, installation without overwriting files from other mods and uninstallation while preserving files from other mods.  In addition, for some reason, I can no longer install the Nexus Mod Manager, which is the standard, simpler to use mod manager.  So, basically, I cannot play my games until this is resolved.  Unfortunately, the author of the tool is no longer working on the application as he has been hired away by the developers of the NMM. Please offer a solution.


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#2 fortunequacker

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Posted 15 July 2017 - 09:39 AM

Interesting.  I just installed Free Commander, ran it from inside MO.  And the mods are all in the data folders, just where they should be.  So, why are my games no longer seeing the mods?  Very strange.  But still something caused by MS Win 10 build 16241.  I know, because I rolled back and my games work perfectly again.


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#3 Tolrem

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Posted 15 July 2017 - 10:42 AM

Same issue here with the last insider build (if I put the mods directly in skyrim folder they work fine, but they don't work from MO anymore, so there's an issue with the VFS / hook). I've read the release notes to see if something in particular could have caused this but nothing stands out. Still trying to find if some new security features prevent the hook from working, I've been at it for hours.

 

We have to find a solution, otherwise people who use MO will have a bad surprise when the fall update for Windows 10 comes out.


Edited by Tolrem, 15 July 2017 - 10:50 AM.

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#4 outdatedTV

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Posted 15 July 2017 - 01:31 PM

By the Nine! This is bad news. We have to take action.
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#5 GrantSP

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Posted 15 July 2017 - 06:06 PM

The OP is incorrect. MO/MO2 doesn't use symlinks for it's functionality it uses a 'hook' that tricks the executables that run from it, e.g. games or game tools or FreeCommander, to "see" those files in a location other than where they truly are.

 

ie. Run MO with a mod stored in C:\ModOrganizer\mods\NameOfMod\ and the game will "see" those files in <GameName>\Data\

 

It is entirely probable that Windows is now aggressive in stopping actions that it deems as 'malicious'. The code used in MO/MO2 is in fact very similar to that used by a number of viruses/malware. Any software that makes system level changes to executables whilst in memory will likely suffer the same fate.



#6 Shizof

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 04:43 AM

The OP is incorrect. MO/MO2 doesn't use symlinks for it's functionality it uses a 'hook' that tricks the executables that run from it, e.g. games or game tools or FreeCommander, to "see" those files in a location other than where they truly are.

 

ie. Run MO with a mod stored in C:\ModOrganizer\mods\NameOfMod\ and the game will "see" those files in <GameName>\Data\

 

It is entirely probable that Windows is now aggressive in stopping actions that it deems as 'malicious'. The code used in MO/MO2 is in fact very similar to that used by a number of viruses/malware. Any software that makes system level changes to executables whilst in memory will likely suffer the same fate.

And what is your recommendation? With this build Directx 9 vram limit is finally gone for windows 10. Many were waiting for this update and this issue is really bad because it'll kill MO for windows 10. 

 

Is there any setting we can turn off in windows with God Mode or something so it works again?


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#7 fortunequacker

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 07:44 AM

The OP is incorrect. MO/MO2 doesn't use symlinks for it's functionality ...

:teehee: You are correct.  I should not have used the term symlink.  I should have said simulate links or something.  However, you are missing the point by quibbling over my wording.  The fact is, the update renders Mod Organizer worthless.

 

I find it ironic that the update that is supposed to help us with retaining the use of these older games, actually may be the very thing that renders them obsolete.

 

Hope someone figures this out. 

 

Where is Tannin when you need him?  :cry:


I suppose if we could figure out what is causing the issue, we could work around it.  But, I spent 8 hours yesterday trying all kinds of different approaches with no luck.  I will continue to poke around.


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#8 GrantSP

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 07:01 PM

My C++ coding is not up to a standard that would be of any use in this matter however I have made contact with a developer that may be able to assist with MO/MO2's development in the future.

 

My initial thought is that Windows' virus checking is getting more aggressive and perhaps the 'hooking' code is being flagged and stopped. As I currently do not have this latest update I can't do any tests to check it, or see what other workarounds there may be.

 

Hang tight and we'll get to the solution, one way or another.



#9 Genius384

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 06:55 AM

Might be worth testing without Defender running.  Also worth noting is that the Fall update will have a new security feature to deter/block Ransomeware, which is probably what this is choking on.


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#10 fortunequacker

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 12:33 PM

I have rolled back and paused my updates for now.  But, eventually I will be forced to move forward because I deleted the files that would be needed in order to roll back to the last stable public build.  So, once I am back in 16241, I will test the Windows Defender theory.

 

I am monitoring this thread and some others in other forums and will report back here if anyone identifies the problem, or find a solution or work-around.


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#11 Chocolate_Napalm

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 07:53 PM

I noticed over the last couple of weeks that my Window10 was becoming more and more unstable. Finally it crashed and I was forced to "refresh" it online. Now, poof, all gone. Nothing recognizes my downloaded mods within MO2. If I could have afforded the replacement cost, I would have punched my monitor. Thanks so much for the help Microsoft.

 

So, what are the odds that, since this has happened, Tanin and the team will have to start over? Can't believe they saw this coming and figured it into their work. Looks like I will be dropping Skyrim for the next year or so, cause I really don't want to go back to Oldrim.


Edited by Chocolate_Napalm, 18 July 2017 - 07:58 PM.

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#12 kernmcnutt

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Posted 23 July 2017 - 07:50 PM

Thank you for posting this!  After a good chunk of 3 days I thought I was losing my mind.  I started having issues as soon as the new build was installed, including Skyrim going south.  So I started over with a s completely fresh clean install of Skyrim and all the tools and followed STEP 2.1.0.0 Wiki for the base utility configuration.  I kept the mods to only Smoking Hot Load (from Ruffled Feather) because it gives visual cues without having to load or start a new game, and Alternate Start.  For anyone else reading this who hasn't experienced it yet, the symptoms (assuming you followed the instructions correctly in the Wiki) are that the base game and DLCs load, SKSE loads, ENBoost loads -- all those are fine (sort of - the SKSE scripts in MO don't load but the base app does).  But on running even a new game, no other mods are present.  Since Genius384 asked about Defender, I did think to disable it via Policy Editor and tested after a reboot.  It made no difference.  As soon as I rolled back to the last stable Win 10 build, everything started working again.

 

For others who read this, if you have seen the same problem, go to the Windows 10 Insider Feedback Hub, search for Organizer, and upvote the 2 issues reported there.  As much as we all want the memory limit in DX9 to go away, not at the expense of killing mod management.


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