Official Mod Organizer Support Forum

[Uhuru]

This was announced on

 

Mod Organizer's Nexus Post Tab

 

a couple of days ago but we haven't got it on here yet and if it's not sunk in what I'm on about

 

This Forum is now the Official Mod Organizer Support Forum

 

Ever Since STEP made this we've seen how much better it is so Tannin gathered up all his main supporters and we came up with a battle plan derusted the Weapons and Armour (and were they rusty)

Two days ago we crossed the Border between Nexus and STEP and made a successful takeover raid the Mod Organizer Support Forum is now under Tannin's Control and his Trusted Men will be keeping this place "Mod Organized" from now on

I thought the whole of STEP could be ours if we just kept marching forward but Tannin's the Boss and he wants this section only, He's right of course Wrye Bash (the next province over) is in disorder and we don't want to deal with that problem.

 

Seriously though STEP has kindly invited Tannin and his Supporters on Nexus Forums to run this subforum for the benefit of all Mod Organizer Users

This does not mean abandoning Nexus. New Releases will be on Nexus no changes with that and after much discussion of alternatives the main advisors will post all advise here and once forum is properly organised (This setup being so new and STEP Teams priority is Core / Pack system so threads have just been moved here from all over old STEP forum) and the Wiki updated which has happening since September on a Sandbox version at the moment (DoubleYou is main man doing so but all help welcome) we will stop posting answers on Nexus completely but will post links to answers on here and Wiki and only stop if questions scease being asked on Nexus. Nudging Users to STEP rather than Force (Tannin won't let me use Torture Chamber we found in Basement so no Fun either).

 

Of course we al have real lives and are all at opposite ends of the Globe as well so things take time STEP has made Tannin a moderator and extended the offer too his main supporters on Nexus Forums we are still getting organized

Tannin's main responsibility is and always will be Mod Organizer Coding and his supporters will do most of the moderating of this Forum and keeping Wiki updated

 

We don't want STEP users to think we're displacing them some of us use STEP or Skyrim Revisited already and it's the knowledge about Modding available here as well as better facilities that make this move so agreeable

Also the new Packs will widen the Modlist on STEP and Mod Organizer is expected to become the main if not the only Mod Manager on STEP

 

Before the backlash to that last statement begins let me first say that is from z929669 STEP Admin himself and those who know him and how much of a Wrye Bash Supporter he is will know with how much regret he said that.

It's a very sad fact that Wrye Bash even with the very loyal and long standing support of many Morrowind, Obivion, Fallout and New Vegas Users has just not made progress with Skyrim and to my fresh eyes (I've only been modding 6 months)

the biggest mistake made was trying to remerge all the versions and make a Skyrim version at the same time. Wrye himself made them separate making it work with Skyrim first should have been the priority.

Once that was done mergiong could have been a goal but not both time has now shown that was a mistake but I'm not trying to Bash it or Wrye the Mod Maker (thats a Bashed Patch's Job) just saying it's supporters are pessimistic and understanably after so long without progress.

 

Enough of others we are here to support Tannin and Mod Organizer not worry what other managers are doing and when we are done neither will you !!!

[TechAngel85]

Glad to have everyone on board! I've been pushing MO over WB for several months now and it will be the only supported mod manager for Mod Testing (I'm spearheading the MT as part of my Release Coordinator duties so the others can focus more on development like they want to). WB still has it's advantages; however, as development on MO continues those advantages will get smaller and smaller (at least I hope) as time goes by. Once MO has a "Bash Patch"-like feature...WB will be in serious trouble.

[deathneko11]

hmm, MO with a bash patch like feature would be extremely interesting to dig into.

 

anyway, I look forward to seeing more activity here on MO S.T.E.P. I won't always be active myself but I'll try my best to pop in and yowl at yall a few days out of the week! (work and all...)

[Uhuru]

Once MO has a "Bash Patch"-like feature...WB will be in serious trouble.

This is should be Next Big Challenge I've been Looking into this and Wrye Bash has basically been stalled on just Level List Patching from the start of Skyrim until forever it looks like

Mod Organizer doees not need this capability it can run any program with it much like we currently use Wrye Bash in Mod Organizer for Bashed Patches

 

This is a problem of feature bloat that can make programs too general and not actually good at its basic function so Tannin has said he would rather use another program through Mod Organizer and keep it focused on its Main purpose

A Lean Mean Mod Organizing Machine

Thats what it should always be

 

Only one candidate of existing utilities seems a likely choice and that is

SkyBash by KurtCop

[Edit] this one I'll do myself

 

 

This THEORETICALLY supports..

 

    Potions (ALCH)

    Ammo (AMMO)

    ARMA records (texture/model data for armors)

    Armors (ARMO)

    Actor Values (AVIF)

    Craftable Objects (COBJ)

    Encounter Zones (ECZN)

    Enchantments (ENCH)

    Factions (FACT)

    Form Lists (FLST)

    Ingredients (INGR)

    Leveled Items (LVLI)

    Leveled NPC's (LVLN)

    Magic Effects (MGEF)

    Miscellaneous Items (MISC)

    Actors, NPC's (NPC_)

    Outfits (OTFT)

    Perks (PERK)

    Races (RACE)

    Spells (SPEL)

    Weapons (WEAP)

See my next post for spoiler explanation [End Edit]

It is based on SkyProc

 

However both

SkyProc's Author Leviathan1753

SkyBash's Author KurtCop

both stopped posting or updating abruptly around May and I have no idea why or if they will return

 

Nothing else I can find is trying to do this functionality, which STEP users would love to have, as Levelled Lists is a poor showing two years after Skyrim's release!

[deathneko11]

so skybash is still in the beta stages, but attempts to accomplish a little extra more than what wryebash does with its bashed patches?

 

and yeah I agree that while a bash functionality for MO would be interesting, I fully support just letting MO using an external program for it as the outcome will be the same without putting extra work load on Tannin and also keeping the core of MO strong and doing what it is intended to do.

[wolverine2710]

Iirc Skybash was created by Plutoman101 (nexus name) and I assume is the same guy as KurtCop. He is the one who gave us Realistic Light with customization (predecessor of Realistic Lightning Overhaul). Latest version is of july 2012. See also https://code.google.com/r/kurtcop-skybash/. I believe then it was its goal not to leveled lists because that was already done by Wrye Bash. It would be great if someone could take over that project, perhaps the wrye bash team.

 

I totally agree with NOT bloating MO. WB can be kickstarted by MO after all. Skybash can be kickstated by MO as well. I can imagine that once Skybash has reached a 1.0 releae (not likely atm) that Tannin could  add Java support for plugins as well. That way Skybash could be part of MO (as a seperate plugin) and it would also enable plugin writers (none atm I believe) to write plugins in Java also. Just my2 euro cent. 

[Uhuru]

I've been wanting to speak to you about this wolverine2710 but waited until you finished holiday.

I've seen references to Plutoman101 author of ASIS (Automatic Spells Increased Spawns) also being author of SkyBash in posts by Leviathan1753 author of SkyProc, Automatic Variants and SUM (SkyProc Unified Manager)

 

They seem to have worked closely together but Plutoman101 and Leviathan1753 have both abruptly stopped posting the last Skyrim posts being May and all Modding activity ceased as well. I discovered yesterday on a further search that Leviathan1753 posted some comments on his Oblivion Mod DLL (Dynamic Leveled Lists) forum on 5th October but thats all no indication of why either stopped modding so abruptly

I know you've done a Lot of work on Automatic Variants so was wondering if you know anything about this specifically is there some issue with SkyProc which would cause these long term modders to stop so suddenly

 

My next course of action will asking TES5Edit Programmers Zilav and Hlp for advice on the best way to develop a Automatic Plugin Merging / Compatibility Patching Tool

 

[Edit] Hidden by request as apparently the written word without distraction of pictures otherwise called a wall of text must intimidate the young ankle biters of the texting and tweeting generations.

 

 

Before finding SkyBash I have discussed this topic with Sharlikran on Nexus Wrye Bash forums and we have different views he loyally supporting Wrye Bash thinks this function is for Wrye Bash to improve.

 

My view is Mod Organizer and I don't care how it's done Plugin, Wrye Bash or Stand Alone are all good for us what matters is that it is done and after two years Wrye Bash has got nowhere and apparently it is not even a high priority for it (which Sharlikran appears to disagree with posting his own list with this first and UI last during our discussion and his tone suggested to me they were reversed on official list)

 

Back when he was first getting access to ElminsterAU's TES#Edit and TES#Snip he expressed a view that these functions were not for TES#Edit and would distract from its main function which was more important for it and TES#Snip would be a better place for such functions if developed correctly but this never occured due to lack of volunteers I think.

 

This is Tannin's position with Mod Organizer it should focus on that task and have ability to access other programs to use their functionality which is the only sensible approach

 

Wrye Bash for which I've great respect for the long and distinguished service it has given modders since Morrowind for both the Elder Scrolls and Fallout Series has for Skyrim not lived up to what its large and very loyal supporters expect from it for two main reasons looking from where I stand as a recent modding convert.

 

First and least problematic and it isn't a little problem is Feature Bloat it has had a policy of absorbing features and mod functions since it started and with each new game it got worse but was controlled by having separate versions for each game which made it workable.

 

Second and most problematic also the biggest problem by far with Wrye Bash now, for those who have not worked it out for themselves, is Wrye Bash itself.

What does that mean? The meaning, there is only one Wrye Bash now (Officially, unofficially I think the other Games users stick to the separate versions for instance I've seen a respected Oblivion Modder recommend Wrye Bash v294·2 as "the most Complete, meaning working features version for Oblivion" on Lovers Lab so not sure on link policy yet but its on there I saw it said PK Lovers author if I remember correctly name like Garth but thats not exactly right)

 

This merging of versions (It was Wrye himself who split them by the way) would have been a huge and difficult problem with fully functional versions for each game or to put it another way after making a proper Skyrim version

I doubt it could be done at all even then

To do it and develop the Skyrim version as well, quite frankly, the project was a disaster from day one, those who initiated it, abandoned the task and many have come and gone since. All editing and patching the code until no-one can make much sense of it and now attempts to fix things are fruitless and even loyal supporters like STEP Admins who initially all dismissed Mod Organizer (Unjustly given virtual Data folder) as doing nothing Wrye Bash could not do [see Mod Organizer (by Tannin42) for these comments] as I would expect Wrye Bash Supporters to do they backed what was then still the better program even though it could never do everything Mod Organizer did.

 

The difference is Mod Organizer has continually improved and Wrye Bash has unfortunately at best stood still, most would say gone backwards, as Oblivion Wrye Bash is better than Skyrim (I don't know Fallout so make no comment on that).

 

I'm a Mod Organizer Supporter but I say unfortunately, because if Wrye Bash had been made to work for Skyrim it's challenge would have made my choice much more difficult last April / May and maybe pushed Tannin to even greater feats of modding.

I say unfortunately mostly because whichever one I chose, Levelled Lists would not be all that can be Merged.

 

Side Issues

NMM (Nexus Mod Manager) was never an option by trying to Mod All programs it does them all badly I consider it a useless piece of junk only kept floating by Nexus Mod Monopoly (Steam Restrictions make it useless, but new consoles will result in Bethesda meaning Zenimax throwing Nexus to the Wolves as the no online modding stance shows. Arma/DayZ shows if will exists a way can be found) and Gophers obsesisve loyalty to Nexus which is his main failing in otherwise good Mod Guides.

 

So if it is accepted that Wrye Bash will not provide Automatic Plugin Merging / Compatibility Patching Tool what will

 

Sky Bash may be the method but I have doubts about that being supported as it relies on SkyProc and both appear abandoned

 

Nothing else that I'm aware of and frankly that surprises two years after Skyrim's release. I can only think most assumed Wrye Bash would provide the answer, it has not done, so do we wait forever.

I see this as an essential function that is not being provided, but needs a dedicated tool whose programmers work on it alone, not an afterthought bolt in tool that's given little consideration.

 

There you go not quite a tweet length but if it helps the poor young things overcome there fear of the Word of Uhuru I'll oblige as my undeniable logical analysis must be overwhelming. (For educational purposes) This is called sarcasm, as the unavoidable truth is although I may have hidden a small section (another sarcasm example) this edit to explain this out of the ordinary behaviour from me has actually increased the "wall of text". PS the text underneath is part of the original but guess it was to far down [End Edit]

 

In this brief comment all opinions are mine alone (what do you mean by thinking, "It's a wall of text not brief at all" check my detailed advise posts this is very brief and you whose thinking "DNRTL" first what have I said about Defining Acronyms it's DNRTL (Did Not Read Too Long) or for those that shorten even this Acronym DRTL (Didn't Read Too Long) it took me ages to figure that alien concept out and to it I reply YDNTYRI (You Do Not Read Therefore You Remain Ignorant) and you would never have understood that acronym without my definition.

Other opinions are available if required however if you consider my opinions controvertial that is your bias speaking my bias has already spoken!

[phazer11]

>V< man Uhuru if I could I'd place some spoilers or something on your post because dang that's a massive wall of text.

[Uhuru]

>V< Means what, see my "Spoiled" post last paragraph for the correct way to use acronyms, basically Define on First Use in a post.

Spoiler is a good description of what it does, spoils my words of wisdom.

I explained my reasoning in another thread but this is an example as I have no idea what you mean by this.

It may be that although in the post I joked about the Texting and Twitter Generation gap there is a significant trend towards this sort of language problem I know typing out words is a ball ache which is why I suggest defining acronyms on first use.

 

It might have meant just the Wiki, as this is from memory or IIRC (If I Recall Correctly), I read that proper language using full punctuation and avoiding Text-speak was requested on STEP.

Even if it only applied on Wiki then, it should apply also on the Support Forums where accuracy is essential, both when giving and recieving advice clarity of thought and descriptions will only be benificial to all involved and later readers.

I am a New Moderator of this support forum and as such must be an example of good practice when I am asking others to follow that example. So if my posts take a longer time for me to write and for you to read setting that example so be it. If you take 6 minutes to read a post the writer probably spent at least 60 minutes on it.

 

I have never sent a text message, I do not use FaceF*ck or Tw*tter (whoops typos edited) and never will. I am by no means a technological dinosaur, I am typing this on a very expensive PC with three 27 inch screens giving 7680x1440 pixels of eyefinity goodness.

My objection to phones is small sreens covered by a keyboard and price not technology and FaceF*ck or Tw*tter (whoops typos edited again) are security and the so called "Friends" counting obsession.

Friends are a rare and precious commodity devalued by applying it to aquaintances.

My Definitions

Aquaintance: someone you have met whether online or in person but you know nothing about them

Associate: Someone you socialise with in person or online people you work with (most people you know are in this category)

Close Associates: As above but limited to those you know well (this is the limit of purely online associations you cannotbe friends because you cannot know each other well enough)

Friends: someone you reall know and trust personally (The most rare and precious relationship not all partners would qualify) you will have very few friends in your life, trust is paramount. How many people would you trust with your money, all of it for months on end without ever thinking they might take some. Your Partner? If you can honestly name one, they are your friend but don't tell FaceF*ck or Tw*tter (whoops typos edited yet again)

 

Right must end or I'll trap phazer11 between two Walls of Text and he'll have to blast his way out (and that Star Trek reference reminds me My Name is not, it's from Black Uhuru, the Jamaican Reggae Band and I believe their use comes from Swahili and it means Freedom)

Last brick in Wall, nothing personal meant phazer11 it's just my warped (Star Trek again) Northern English sense of humour teleporting (enough of bloody Star Trek) into your head.

[Aiyen]

Spoiler tags is just one way to produce a nice looking layout.

But in general if you are doing a post that is one page long, then it is really straining on the eyes if it is just a wall.

I would just be happy with some better paragraphing... but again when I make a semi long post I should also learn to be better at that!

 

Also I think you have a bit unhealthy relationship with acronyms :P

 

I would never expect that someone type in what an acronym means in every single post, since that would almost ruin the point of them. There is something to be said about people looking up stuff on their own if they want technical assistance.

I personally know I would never do that... only in a post that is meant to be a guide or similar, since I just cba to spend that extra amount of time on every single post.

 

 

As for the topic at hand, then yeah I like MO for not doing what WB does and sticks to what it does best. NMM´s biggest flaw is that it works with many games, but have so little functionality in every game that the difference between using it and manually installing is very little.

 

Would be interresting if a program was made that could better handle the various lists in skyrim. In a dream world then you would be able to load it up and select everything you wanted at what level from a nice GUI, then it would create the .esp automatically.

I know that would be a great help for people who love to have 10000 different swords and armors etc.

[TechAngel85]

Acronyms should be used lightly. Readers shouldn't be forced to go look up what they mean just to understand someone's post. Personally, if a post is full of acronyms that aren't common knowledge (thus I don't know what they are), I'll simply not read the post and ignore it. We don't want STEP forums becoming a teenage girls texting arena. :P A hint of professionalism is preferred, especially from anyone associated with staff.

[phazer11]

@Uhuru I never used an acronym in my post LOL

[humbye]

Hello, 

 

Is this the right place to ask about help with the Mod Organizer? If not, could someone direct me to the proper thread?

 

I'm looking for help with MO functionality rather than bug reporting. I have read through the wiki documentation, but have not found the info I'm looking for.

 

Thank you.

[Aiyen]

Posted by techangel85 - Today 05:11 PM

Acronyms should be used lightly. Readers shouldn't be forced to go look up what they mean just to understand someone's post. Personally, if a post is full of acronyms that aren't common knowledge (thus I don't know what they are), I'll simply not read the post and ignore it. We don't want STEP forums becoming a teenage girls texting arena. Tongue A hint of professionalism is preferred, especially from anyone associated with staff.

Hehe Ofc. 

 

I just mean I am not going to start every post with "Mod organizer (MO)" and every single mod help post by defining the name of the mod as an acronym... I assume that people know that this is the case. 

Example if people are asking for help for Skyrim Flora Overhaul, I am just going to say SFO since it should be fairly obvious from the circumstance that this is what is being talked about. 

 

But yeah I am never going to go all school girl, acronym only mode lol. 

 

But enough of this awkard offtopic thing, it can be moved to somewhere more appropriate I am sure! 

 

 

Also Yes Humbye this would be a good place to ask about such! Then the fine gentlemen who knows all the mojo about MO hopefully answer! 

[wolverine2710]

Uhuru said : Wolverine I know you've done a Lot of work on Automatic Variants so was wondering if you know anything about this specifically is there some issue with SkyProc which would cause these long term modders to stop so suddenly

I have emailed with Leviathan1753 (Justin) in the past. I will try to send him an email in the weekend to see what is the cause of the abcense of updates for AV. Perhaps he knows whats going on with Plutoman101 also, they are friends afaik. In the past Leviathian had RL issues. It is also possible he just got tired of coding because of a lack of feedback of the users. The latest AV has support for meshes and weapons but so far nobody has bothered to create AV packages (AVP) for them. I'm guilty here also. I wanted/volunteered  to create weapon AVP's but RL and MO got in the way.... Ah well perhaps in a few months I have a bit more time when the dust settles for MO and the MO wiki.

[EssArrBee]

We should definitely ask Cabal is we can make a AV pack for Book of Silence. That would be a decent one to start with since he has different flavors of almost all the armors, dark and light for some and white fur or brown fur for others. It would be pretty cool to see a Thalmor patrol with gold elven and black elven armor march down the road.