My Gaming Rig

[TechAngel85]

I really like that this thread has turned into an intellectual conversation about the finer points of system building!

 

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[mothergoose729]

Just because it cannot be said enough.... check dem rails!

Anything not single rail should essentially be thrown out if you do not have a multi gpu setup! There is just no point in them! And nothing sucks more then having a PSU which technically can run your rig, but you do not get the FPS you expect since the card simply cannot draw as much power as it needs and hence downscales its performance to compensate.

 

 

 

Virtually all modern PSU will have at least two rails. There are several reasons for this; the first is a safety mandate imposed by intel (I think?) years ago to protect the processor and socket of the motherboard. If a rail shorts out it can only shoot as much power as their are amps on that rail, thereby reducing the likelihood and the severatiy of PSU failure. Also, a rail with a smaller amperage is easier to control and regulate. Quality PSU might have 3 or 4 rails on them, especially higher wattage ones, and it is for that reason. When you are using a PSU, it is usually pretty easy to tell which cords are on one rails as compared to another. A cord which has 2 6 pin graphics connectors has both 6 pins on the same rail, while a graphics coonnector on another cord would likely correspond to a different rail. You will notice that most of the molex and sata connectors are all on one cord as well, because they all use 5v power which is on another rail. A singe rail PSU is not necessarily better or worse than a PSU with more than one rail in terms of quality and power output. It should also be noted that the amperage advertised on each rail is the maximum power output on that rail, and it might be the case that if you add up all the amperage and multiply by the corresponding voltage you get a number much higher than the advertised output for the PSU. Most of the time a maximum 12v wattage output will be listed below the amperage for each rail on the unit. 

 

If you are using a more than two high powered graphics card or a couple of processors then you should probably just pay more and get something with a higher advertised power output. For nearly all enthusiasts, especially if you are only using a single processor and graphics card, any old 50$ PSU advertised at 500 watts or more with at least bronze level efficiency will likely serve you just fine. Like many other parts, reliability and build quality is most important. Many enthusiasts feel they need a high wattage power supply, and it certainly better to get to much than not enough, but often you can easily get away with a 400 watt unit with a couple of graphics card so long as its a quality unit. I know of several people who have done just that. 

[phazer11]

Well ok it seems I was a bit off in what I recalled it was a line of power supplies made by Thermaltake not all of their PSU's that were getting bad press. I haven't seen anything about the SMART series but the PurePower and TR2 lines were; from what I can tell the bad ones.

 

Here are some links I found useful for myself when building. I can't find any of the ones not on OCN since I didn't transfer my bookmarks to my laptop.

User Submitted Power Values

Single Vs Multi-Rail Explained

[Ubeogesh]

Didn't read all the thread, sorry. Bug have seen some suggestions to save on the CPU in favor of the GPU.

That is completely wrong if you're going to play Skyrim. Modded Skyrim badly needs a fast CPU - I have seen up to 20 FPS increase when switched from FX-8350 to i7-4770K, and when I overclocked 4770K I had ~10 more FPS in some places.

As for the GPU, there's a 4GB ZOTAC GTX 760, which is just 10$ more than EVGA 760 2GB. Why don't you buy it? https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814500312

When you're buying EVGA you're paying much for the name; ZOTAC is a very decent manufacturer on the other hand.

If you need to save more money, I suggest you

a) buy an OEM version of the CPU and a cheap cooler separately (usually is cheaper than buying a box version of the cpu). Then when you decide to upgrade - buy a good cooler and overclock the CPU.

Also don't try overclocking CPU with software, it sucks.

b) save something on the case and PSU. I.e. try this InWin case with PSU: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811108429

The bundled PSU enough power for slightly overclocked 4670 and GTX 760.

[TechAngel85]

Didn't read all the thread, sorry. Bug have seen some suggestions to save on the CPU in favor of the GPU.

That is completely wrong if you're going to play Skyrim. Modded Skyrim badly needs a fast CPU - I have seen up to 20 FPS increase when switched from FX-8350 to i7-4770K, and when I overclocked 4770K I had ~10 more FPS in some places.

As for the GPU, there's a 4GB ZOTAC GTX 760, which is just 10$ more than EVGA 760 2GB. Why don't you buy it? https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814500312

When you're buying EVGA you're paying much for the name; ZOTAC is a very decent manufacturer on the other hand.

If you need to save more money, I suggest you

a) buy an OEM version of the CPU and a cheap cooler separately (usually is cheaper than buying a box version of the cpu). Then when you decide to upgrade - buy a good cooler and overclock the CPU.

Also don't try overclocking CPU with software, it sucks.

b) save something on the case and PSU. I.e. try this InWin case with PSU: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811108429

The bundled PSU enough power for slightly overclocked 4670 and GTX 760.

Those are good suggestions that would be great to use in most circumstances; however, there are a couple reasons for my choices.

 

The CPU is really not being skipped out on. The unlocked i5 Haswell I've gone with will have more than enough power to run Skyrim, not to mention I can overclock it into the 4+ GHz range. You're basically paying an extra $100 for hyperthreading and slightly larger cache with the i7 models. This isn't worth it for me as Skyrim and the other games I mainly play don't even support hyperthreading. The increase you experienced most likely came from switching from AMD to Intel. Look as these benches...even the i5 processors beat out that FX-8350 at stock and those benches are a bit old. I have no issues with my choice of processor.

 

I've chosen the EVGA mainly for two reasons: better cooling and longer warranty. With that said, I'm hoping to bump this up to a GTX 770 4GB for an extra $100 (probably Gigabyte). I actually like the look of the PNY cards and they'd match the theme of the build; however, the 1yr warranty will not cut it.

 

The case I will not budge on unless it's an improvement for less. I've picked out an excellent case with plenty of room to grow for future use. As for a case with a power supply... lot a cases are bundled with half-cut, low quality PSUs which I'm not willing to risk my system on seeing how much money I'm dumping into this build.

 

Thanks for the feedback!

[Ubeogesh]

The CPU is really not being skipped out on. The unlocked i5 Haswell I've gone with will have more than enough power to run Skyrim' date=' not to mention I can overclock it into the 4+ GHz range. You're basically paying an extra $100 for hyperthreading and slightly larger cache with the i7 models. This isn't worth it for me as Skyrim and the other games I mainly play don't even support hyperthreading. The increase you experienced most likely came from switching from AMD to Intel. Look as these benches...even the i5 processors beat out that FX-8350 at stock and those benches are a bit old. I have no issues with my choice of processor.

 

I've chosen the EVGA mainly for two reasons: better cooling and longer warranty. With that said, I'm hoping to bump this up to a GTX 770 4GB for an extra $100 (probably Gigabyte). I actually like the look of the PNY cards and they'd match the theme of the build; however, the 1yr warranty will not cut it.

 

The case I will not budge on unless it's an improvement for less. I've picked out an excellent case with plenty of room to grow for future use. As for a case with a power supply... lot a cases are bundled with half-cut, low quality PSUs which I'm not willing to risk my system on seeing how much money I'm dumping into this build.

 

Thanks for the feedback!

 

I'm not saying you should buy an i7. i5 is fine, sure! I was saying - don't listen to those guys saying that you should go with AMD. I personally bought i7-4770k because for me the difference was ~60$ and also I didn't want to have downgrade in the amount of processor threads (cuz I had 8 cores on fx-8350 before)

 

EVGA cooling is better, yes, but better cooling is not as beneficial as an extra RAM. Better cooling is needed only if you plan to overclock the card. And if you plan to do it - warranty is already void, so why would you care about longer warranty? Really, try a ZOTAC card.

 

As for the InWin PSU I can assure you they are good enough to last 10 years under >50% capacity. You are not risking anything. In case PSU fails to give enough power, maximum you can experience is GPU driver crashes or sudden system reboots. Modern PSUs are way overpowered - I recently built a system with an FX-8350 and OC'd HD7790 with an extremely cheap PSU that came with a case for 50$ from Cooler Master. The PSU 12v rating was 20 amps only (and it had only 1 12v line - which is 240 watts only; the PSU didn't even had a PCI-e power connector - I had to use an adapter). The system worked on stress load with Prime95 + MSI Kombustor for an hour just fine. I replaced the PSU though, cause that one was noisy.

Another example I can give you is my mate building small form factor PCs with 80W PSUs and some quad core i5 45W TDP. Systems are working more than a year already, no complaints.

I understand that you want a nice case though, cause you're building a system for yourself - can't argue with that (although InWin cases use good quality materials and have many features, their design is not the best and they can't fit all the hardware you might want to put in there, i.e. 240mm water cooling radiator or an extremely long graphics card). Its just that most people that I build PCs for don't see the reason why do you need a more expensive case when a 60$ case with bundled PSU can fit all the hardware.

And since you are buying a case without a PSU, I see no reason buying a cheaper PSU that you have selected here.

[TechAngel85]

I know it's not practical but when I build my personal systems I also theme then. This one will be a black and gold theme.

 

As for the video card, I don't plan on overclocking it. I just want to extra warranty for extra assurance. Also the EVGA and Gigabyte cards fit the theme of the build better. I do plan on going with a 4Gbps card as well.

 

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[Spock]

If you are dead set on going NVidia the 770 is probably the most expensive card that makes sense buying as it is close in performance and price to the 280x. The 280x is probably more "future proof" though because of it's much better compute power.

I've made bad experiences with Gigabyte cards in the past though. I would read more then a few reviews for pitfalls like VRM temps, voltlocks, elpida ram etc. of Gigabyte cards.

[TechAngel85]

Most of the 280x are at least $50 more expensive and you only get 3gb VRAM instead of the 4gb with nvidia.

 

Honestly, I've not had any bad experiences with the brands that I've bought. Only exception was a ATi card I bought many moons ago. Been with nvidia since without issues.

 

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[Nearox]

The 770 is nvidia's 7x generation card marketed for SLI configurations, just like the 670, though it also works good ofc for single card.

 

IMHO: Whatever you do, think future-proof. This means: 1) plenty of vram 2) possibilities for expansion down the raod. 

 

As for 1) 4gb vram is more than enough at the moment, and you can check some anandtech tests of 4k resolution with BF4 at high only requiring 3-3.5gb of vram... so 4gb is imo gonna be future-proof for quite a few years assuming very few will make the giant leap that is 4K gaming. Skyrim with HD textures is usually more demanding in terms of vram than other games.

 

As for 2) Modern 80-plus certified PSU's will generally last for a long time, especially those from A-class manufacturers. Many give 5 years or more warranty (even 7 or 8 if I recall correct, but a good PSU will last longer than that). A 750 silver certified or better a 850w GPU with at least bronze certification will give you the room necessary for a possible future 2nd card in SLI/CF as well as overclocking room for CPU. Unless you are 100% sure you don't want SLI/CF, I'd spend the extra 50 bucks or so for a decent 750/850 watt PSU and never worry about it again for nearly a decade. Also, 2nd hand GPU offers about 1 or 2 years down the road are usually very cheap and can get you top class performance. You can expect the 770 to go for approximately 40-50% of the price in 2 years. The best investment in a PC is the PSU, but it is often overlooked. The corsair AX series (e.g. AX760) is one of the most popular I think.

[Spock]

Most of the 280x are at least $50 more expensive and you only get 3gb VRAM instead of the 4gb with nvidia.

 

Honestly, I've not had any bad experiences with the brands that I've bought. Only exception was a ATi card I bought many moons ago. Been with nvidia since without issues.

 

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Well, I suppose that depends on the country and shops. Here in Germany it's ~350€ for the EVGA 770 with 4 gb ~275€ for the Asus 280x TOP (best 280x out there!) Gigabyte 770 with 4 gb is ~320€ but that one got pretty bad user ratings on Geizhals. But I didn't look up MSRP prices and you usually pay more premium for EVGA here.

Geizhals user ratings have been relatively reliable for me over the past maybe you should have a second look. Techpowerup usually takes a closer looks to the components. I'd also see other review for the stuff I pointed out.

I think I will start a new thread on the ati vs nvidia thing

[edit]

Well, I did decide against it because I have insufficient knowledge and backup to explaining the difference between ATI and NVidia architecture to start such a project. A friend of mine explained it in great detail, I'll try to sum it up anyway: ATI generally has the more "intelligent" architecture which is more flexible but harder to program and requires higher clock speeds (thus more power). Nvidia has an architecture with a more parallel logic which is worse at most other tasks then drawing geometry (but requires less power and has bigger chips allowing better cooling). That's the main reason ATI is so much better at computing tasks. Mantle will help using this architecture (how useful this is for an ATI card owner depends on the games supporting this though) and it's probably better suited for future game's tasks.

Driver support for NVidia is better though.

[Ubeogesh]

I've made bad experiences with Gigabyte cards in the past though

 

Me too. I remember having Gigabyte GTX 560 Ti OC that was crashing until I flashed an updated BIOS for it.

Also had bad experience with Gigabyte motherboards - i.e. BSODs when using iGPU, some SATA ports laggy.

---

Also, 2nd hand GPU offers about 1 or 2 years down the road are usually very cheap and can get you top class performance. You can expect the 770 to go for approximately 40-50% of the price in 2 years.

 

So you can sell your 770 for that lower price and get a single modern GPU that will be maybe a bit slower than dual 770, but much more power efficient and working in all the games.

No, SLI\CF suck. The only reason to have them is when a single modern top of the line overclocked GPU is not enough.

[Ubeogesh]

Asus 280x TOP (best 280x out there!)

 

After using ASUS HD7950-DC2T-3GD5 I tend to thing their DirectCU coolers suck. They are massive, but heavy - so the PCB tends to bend over time. Because of this, radiator clamp on the GPU chip weakens and temperature rises (I added a couple of washers for the screws to improve the clamp and had temperatures drop by 8 degrees). It also was quite noisy - at higher fan speeds it rattled.

[Ubeogesh]

Well, I did decide against it because I have insufficient knowledge and backup to explaining the difference between ATI and NVidia architecture to start such a project. A friend of mine explained it in great detail, I'll try to sum it up anyway: ATI generally has the more "intelligent" architecture which is more flexible but harder to program and requires higher clock speeds (thus more power). Nvidia has an architecture with a more parallel logic which is worse at most other tasks then drawing geometry (but requires less power and has bigger chips allowing better cooling). That's the main reason ATI is so much better at computing tasks. Mantle will help using this architecture (how useful this is for an ATI card owner depends on the games supporting this though) and it's probably better suited for future game's tasks.

Driver support for NVidia is better though.

 

All of this doesn't matter. Everything that matters are gaming benchmarks, noise, power consumption and feature support. Currently AMD and Nvidia are at par in gaming benchmarks, but noise, power consumption and feature support Nvidia is the winner.

 

I remember back in 2007 (or 2006?) when Nvidia released G80 (8800 GTX) and it was sooo fast, like 3 times faster than the previous generation. The answer from ATI was promising as they advertised - the R600 (HD2900 XT), but in games it was not nearly as good as G80. The performance of their architecture wasn't yet unleashed - they only caught up with Nvidia on HD5000 series, and in high end HD7000 they got just a bit better. But a miracle didn't happen - since R600, the performance of ATI\AMD cards only increased as much as the amount of processing units and their clock speed increased. Another point is that AMD's always late! They release better performing cards only after Nvidia did it.

That said, I wouldn't rely on Mantle. I think it will give a bit of advantage, but it will not be significant in the end.

AMD cards are good for mining bit\lite\*coins currently.

Just in case, I'm not Nvidia fanboy.

[TechAngel85]

Woot! My tax return was accepted! One step closer to my build! :D

 

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