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TES5Edit - Which record types DON'T need conflict patches

tes5edit conflict resolution patch conflict resolution

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#1 keithinhanoi

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Posted 02 March 2014 - 11:35 PM

*
POPULAR

Over time, and by reading comments of mod authors, I have learned that for certain record types displayed in TES5Edit, when using the conflict filter feature, some records are incorrectly identified as conflicting (ie., "conflicting" = overridden by a plugin which comes later in the load order.)
 
For example, ripple, the author of Inconsequential NPCs has explained that location persistent references (LCPR sub-records in LCTN / Location records) supplied by different plugins are not actually overwritten by the last mod in the load order LCTN for certain locations (source)The implication here is that all those references are combined and used from all mods with that record type when Skyrim is started. So in other words, when making a compatibility patch in TES5Edit, you do not need to copy overrides for those particular records.
 
I have asked in a number of places which records types do not need to be carried forward into compatibility patches, but have never received a reply, and still to this day have not found a definitive list in one place. Well, I'd like to change that, and I need your help, if this is something you are knowledgeable about.
 
Below is a list of record types, grouped by category, that I have read comments saying they are incorrectly identified as conflicting, because they are actually combined at runtime:
 
A List of Non-Conflicting Record Types seen in TES5Edit [WIP]
Dialogue Topic (DIAL) Record sub-record types:

  • TFIC - Info Count  (Confirmed - sources: here & here)

Dialogue Information (INFO) Record sub-record types:

  • PNAM - Previous Info  (Confirmed here)

Idle Animation (IDLE) Record sub-record types:

  • ANAM - Related Idle Animations  (Confirmed here)

Location (LCTN) Record sub-record types:

  • ACPR - Actor Cell Persistent Reference
  • LCPR - Location Cell Persistent Reference
  • RCUN - Reference Cell UNique
  • ACSR - Actor Cell Static References
  • LCSR - Location Cell Static Reference
  • RCSR - Reference Cell Static Reference
  • ACEC - Actor Cell Encounter Cell
  • LCEC - Location Cell Encounter Cell
  • RCEC - Reference Cell Encounter Cell
  • ACID - Actor Cell Marker Reference
  • LCID - Location Cell Marker Reference
  • ACEP - Actor Cell Enable Point
  • LCEP - Location Cell Enable Point

NOTE: Other LCTN sub-record types require conflict management.
(Confirmed - sources: herehere, here & here)

Story Manager Quest Node (SMQN) Record sub-record types:

  • SNAM - Child sub-records
  • QNAM - Quest Count / Quests
  • (Confirmed - source: here & here)
     

Story Manager B??? Node (SMBN) Record sub-record types:

  • SNAM - Child sub-records  (Confirmed here)

For more details about how the above listed sub-record types merge at runtime, please see this excellent opening thread post by Arthmoor from 12 March 2014. Many thanks to him for confirming / explaining all of these, and a tip of the hat to MonoAccipitor for noticing Arthmoor's post.
 
I will update this list with additional confirmed non-conflicting record types based on your replies.
Thanks in advance for your help, and let's hope others can benefit from this list!


Edited by z929669, 17 January 2015 - 03:32 PM.

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#2 MonoAccipiter

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 04:38 AM

SOURCE

This is Arthmoor's reply to a question regarding LCTN records:

 

Ignore them. The game merges LCTN data at runtime.

Another user replied to whether the "TIFC - Info Count" (which I assume is what you meant by Dialogue Topic) records were to be ignored:

 

All counters should be kept at a proper value MANUALLY if you change the array they keep track of. The ability for updating those record automatically is not done yet.

The first one speaks for itself, but the second quote is rather tricky. Make of it what you wish, I hope it helps anyway.


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#3 Nearox

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 06:56 AM

Great post. 

 

The other day when I was looking at some mods for REGS in TES5Edit together with CJ2311, I think he said that there are some other record types than the ones listed in the OP, which also don't need to be patched. Don't remember exactly what they were. CJ2311 maybe you'd like to chime in? :D


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#4 keithinhanoi

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 08:43 AM

@MonoAccipiter:

Thanks a bunch for that source from Arthmoor - I've added it, and put more detailed list of non-conflicting sub-record types under the LCTN Record heading. The other post on the TIFC sub-record type seems to contradict what ripple has said - I've added this, and will wait for someone else to help clarify on TIFC sub-records.

@Nearox:

Thanks - It's not a great post... but I hope it will be one someday. I have my own reasons for doing this, though, because I am working on my own global compatibility patch in TES5Edit, and want to make sure I haven't copied / merged edits into that patch that I shouldn't or don't need to. I will wait for CJ2311 to post here - or maybe I should pray that he does?   ::P:


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#5 CJ2311

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 11:16 AM

Nearox completely misquoted me there, what I actually said in that discussion is that I don't give a rat's ass about whether or not there's a very minor change such as the water height in a cell without water or a weather type mismatch ::P:

The only two types records I know of that really don't need forwarding are those in LCTN group, and the EDID (Editor ID) of cells.

Worldspace (WRLD) Record sub-record types:


    [*]XLCN - Location - [color=#ffffff;]([/color][color=#00ffff;]source[/color][color=#ffffff;] - [/color][color=#ff0000;]not 100% confirmed[/color], I think the poster was mistaken[color=#ffffff;])[/color]
    [/list]
Can't say I've seen the DLC or USP not forward a XLCN value. I think the guy might be confusing those with the LTCN group, since they both refer to locations.

Non-Player Character Actor (NPC_) Record sub-record types:

VMAD - Virtual Machine Adapter (attached Papyrus script data) (not 100% confirmed)

Uuuh, pretty sure these need to be forwarded or merged depending on the case, BYOD would be a good example of this since it uses the same body cleanup script than the USKP, but changes the reference to the NPC's grave.
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#6 Nearox

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 12:57 PM

If you say you don't give a rat's ass, then I interpret that as: not needed :P


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#7 Kelmych

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 01:57 PM

I don't think XLCN records are forwarded. If I remember correctly, this has been the problem with the Hearthfire homes not showing up when other later-loading mods don't include the XLCN record added by Hearthfires.esm

#8 Neovalen

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 02:07 PM

XLCN are definitely not forwarded. Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk
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#9 keithinhanoi

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Posted 03 March 2014 - 05:40 PM

Thanks CJ2311, Kelmych, & Neovalen - I've removed the entry for XCLN.
 

[color=#b8b8b8;][font="'lucida sans', 'lucida grande', sans-serif;"]Non-Player Character Actor (NPC_) Record sub-record types:[/color][/font]

[color=#b8b8b8;][font="'lucida sans', 'lucida grande', sans-serif;"]VMAD - Virtual Machine Adapter (attached Papyrus script data) (not 100% confirmed)[/color][/font]

Uuuh, pretty sure these need to be forwarded or merged depending on the case, BYOD would be a good example of this since it uses the same body cleanup script than the USKP, but changes the reference to the NPC's grave.

Well, I should have put a better explanation.
 
What I read was that for different scripts attached to the same actor, there is no conflict because they are combined and attached to that actor at runtime. However if two mods make changes to the same script, like with USKP and Bring Out Your Dead, then you need to forward each full set of VMAD data with whatever changes you want into your patch plugin. I just can't for the life of me find the source for that. I saw it quite a while ago, and just took down notes without the URL.

Anyhow, I've put a more descriptive entry for VMAD, with the "not 100% confirmed" warning still there.

Edited by keithinhanoi, 03 March 2014 - 07:50 PM.

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#10 EssArrBee

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Posted 06 March 2014 - 12:25 PM

What about LNAM? I'm betting that FormIDs would get merged. That would really create a mess if they didn't.



#11 keithinhanoi

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 10:11 AM

@EssArrBee: You're right, and I assume they get merged as well, but I can't find anything on the web the explicitly states that LNAM entries are merged at runtime. Anyhow, I've added it with the "not confirmed" warning.

 

I've also added Story Manager Quest Node records as another one that gets merged - came across [color=#40e0d0;]a post about it[/color] by Arthmoor, in the comments thread for AS-LAL.


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#12 MonoAccipiter

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 03:38 AM

Look what I found!

::D:


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#13 keithinhanoi

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 05:15 AM

Hey - that's exactly what I had been hoping to find before I started this thread! Thanks a bunch for the heads up.

 

I've updated my list to match what he's posted (a few new ones - yay!), and added a link referring to Arthmoor's post, because it basically trumps what I've done here (and most of my sources of confirmation were from him anyhow!)

 

I suppose I'll leave this here, though, just as a quick reference - and perhaps it could be added to the STEP wiki on TES5Edit / conflict resolution.


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#14 CJ2311

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Posted 20 March 2014 - 05:58 AM

You should probably remove FLST from the list too, then.
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#15 keithinhanoi

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 09:46 AM

FLST - Form ID List has been removed, and I've asked for clarification on EDID sub-records, as I thought they're mainly useful for identifying things in CK, and not actually used by the game.


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