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utility load order

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#1 z929669

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 09:13 PM

Discussion thread:
LOOT by WrinklyNinja
Wiki Link
 
LOOT is an advanced Load Order Optimization Tool that scans your plugins and suggests a possible load order.



#2 Kuldebar

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 09:44 PM

It's working for me, I think...nothing has screwed up yet.

 

I recently started delving into and using SkyRe and all the stuff that goes with it, near as I can tell LOOT is doing the load ordering just fine. I have to sort masters a lot after running LOOT, that's the only thing I see as a big departure from running BOSS.

 

At the risk of being repetitive, my big gripe about LOOT is that I'm relegated to a button pusher now, albeit a somewhat enlightened one. The average user is going to be very disconnected from the process because of the defacto closed system that LOOT represents. And yes, before anyone interjects, sure you can "peek" at things under the hood  but honestly that will confuse and frighten the hell out of most users. BOSS was far more organic and more a human input driven system, its master lists were built on user sourced information and not algorithmically devised thus far from "perfect".

 

It is LOOT's near(er) perfection that is its weakest link, because fallible humans may not readily know when LOOT needs a hand.


Edited by Kuldebar, 09 May 2014 - 12:33 AM.

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#3 z929669

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Posted 08 May 2014 - 09:54 PM

I too see the algorithm-etric intelligence of LOOT as both a strength and a weakness, but it will ultimately allow user-based rules to be incorporated ... AFAIK, it does so now, but the submission process is not as simple and transparent. If you look at the masterlist, it seems editable, so I am assuming that LOOT is just BOSS with more automation based on a rule set (and less built-in user functionality ATM). It might mess up some things that don't obey the rules, but it should require much less user-integrated input.

 

I have yet to see what it does with my Requiem build. That will be the true test for me, as BOSS requires about 35 user rules to sort it properly. I'll post back when I look at that.



#4 keithinhanoi

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 12:23 AM

 The average user is going to be very disconnected from the process....

 

Hmm. I've always thought the exact same of BOSS, having seen all of the multitudes of "Did you try running BOSS?" as the answer to almost every game issue under the sun described in mod comment threads. That plus the general clear ignorance of it being based on user-submissions.


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#5 dreadflopp

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 02:34 AM

I haven't tried LOOT yet, but will soon. From what I've seen it looks great and it will probably solve conflicts that I am now doing patches for. since that is sometimes easier than doing lots of override rules for BOSS. What I would like from LOOT though is a log. Say you install 200+ plugins, sort with LOOT. Check everything in TES5Edit and maybe make some user rules. Everything is fines Then you install another mod. With BOSS you just had to check that in TES5Edit to look for conflicts. With LOOT, as I understand it, several mods can shift places to solve new potential conflicts. You would then need a log to know what plugins shifted places in the load order to be able to check them for conflicts. 


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#6 Spock

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 03:59 AM

I haven't tried LOOT yet, but will soon. From what I've seen it looks great and it will probably solve conflicts that I am now doing patches for. since that is sometimes easier than doing lots of override rules for BOSS. What I would like from LOOT though is a log. Say you install 200+ plugins, sort with LOOT. Check everything in TES5Edit and maybe make some user rules. Everything is fines Then you install another mod. With BOSS you just had to check that in TES5Edit to look for conflicts. With LOOT, as I understand it, several mods can shift places to solve new potential conflicts. You would then need a log to know what plugins shifted places in the load order to be able to check them for conflicts. 

I can't think of many instances where load order can make patches obsolete. Either both mods edit the same entry or one has dirty edits (which should be cleaned anyway). Things like region settings might be an exception though.

That's why shifting around shouldn't happen too often. I can't really think of an instance where the load order of two mods A and B should be changed because of a mod C unless you are in a situation where a manual T5E patch is advisable anyway. Hopefully LOOT will detect patches and moves them automatically, I'll have to try that.


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#7 DoubleYou

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 11:21 AM

I can't think of many instances where load order can make patches obsolete. Either both mods edit the same entry or one has dirty edits (which should be cleaned anyway). Things like region settings might be an exception though. That's why shifting around shouldn't happen too often. I can't really think of an instance where the load order of two mods A and B should be changed because of a mod C unless you are in a situation where a manual T5E patch is advisable anyway. Hopefully LOOT will detect patches and moves them automatically, I'll have to try that.

I can think of two off the top of my head. If you load Guard Dialogue Overhaul before Weapons and Armor Fixes, there is no need for the GDO WAF patch. If you load RealisticWaterTwo before Audio Overhaul for Skyrim, you don't need the AOS RWT patch.

#8 dreadflopp

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 12:51 PM

There are simmilar things happening when combining perk mods. A perk plugin for sneak might also modify armor skills. I have moved around TTR Skull overhaul, stealth skills rebalanced and dragon shouts overhaul a lot in my install. Different conflicts are solved if I move them around. Patching might be easier than to move mods using BOSS and also solve problems if someone installs more mods (I'm making a pack) since all user BOSS rules may cause conflicts with mods I don't use. With LOOT a patch might not be needed at all. I'm actually looking forward to use it but won't switch until the pack and all patches are finished.

Edited by dreadflopp, 09 May 2014 - 12:52 PM.

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#9 Spock

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Posted 09 May 2014 - 03:07 PM

 

I can think of two off the top of my head. If you load Guard Dialogue Overhaul before Weapons and Armor Fixes, there is no need for the GDO WAF patch. If you load RealisticWaterTwo before Audio Overhaul for Skyrim, you don't need the AOS RWT patch.

Oh yes, right, didn't think about that. If mod A incorporates changes from mod B and adds more it should be loaded after mod B. I would count that as one instance though :)


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#10 phryxolydian

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Posted 22 May 2014 - 02:30 AM

Do I need to download from above link to get the userlist manager or does the one integrated in MO already has this and I'm just completely braindead?  ::|:


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#11 EssArrBee

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Posted 22 May 2014 - 02:35 AM

You need to use the one above yes.

 

EDIT: Had to retype that since I didn't read the question correctly.



#12 Crimson13

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Posted 22 May 2014 - 09:50 PM

So what's the general consensus about using LOOT with MO? Better than BOSS, keep using BOSS? And would one set up LOOT through MO just like BOSS?


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#13 phryxolydian

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Posted 22 May 2014 - 10:12 PM

You need to use the one above yes.

 

EDIT: Had to retype that since I didn't read the question correctly.

I'm going to try it out eventually but, after briefly loading TES5Edit with LOOT's load order, I immediately saw that my CORE Patch and other mods end up being overwritten, when they shouldn't. So,I'd have to do a LOOT userlist management, same as with BOSS.

Out of curiousity, do you use LOOT, Ess? I'm guessing you don't since you have to do all the STEP patches  with BOSS in mind but, what's your take on it? It's not like BOSS is broke or anything. With your knowledge of TES5Edit, or even my lesser knowledge of it, I don't think a switch is "necessary", do you?


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#14 EssArrBee

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Posted 22 May 2014 - 10:16 PM

2.2.8 is setup for BOSS and will not be changed to LOOT. 2.2.9 will be set up for LOOT and we will include instructions for using the user list manager. To be honest I haven't done any 2.2.8 housekeeping in months. To busy with F&LNV and 2.2.9 plus some secret project(s?).

#15 phryxolydian

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Posted 22 May 2014 - 10:26 PM

Hmm, I see.. secret projects eh.. any hints? :)


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