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#1 z929669

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 01:38 PM

We encourage all community members to become active on the wiki, and we are seeing some great new wiki use and development from several users and staff lately ... example (and see adjacent recent topics). The proposed 'Fc' template changes by Proton are 'good', and I would like to implement some standard color/markup uses for the site. site CSS is probably the best way, but templates like this example is another viable option, IMO. Whatever is most easily maintained is my pick.

 

Any new templates should be coded to include an "Experimental" warning at the top of the page. It might also be a good idea to include such an indicator in the transclusion itself or even restrict the use of such templates to wiki admins.



#2 EssArrBee

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 02:26 PM

As long as we can customize a few things on our guide pages no one is going to care if remove the extension. My current CSS page just changes a few things like colors, spacing of the <pre></pre> sections, and header fonts/thickness/widths. We only need the power to do a few things overall so it shouldn't be that hard to come up with something.



#3 TechAngel85

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 03:21 PM

As long as we can customize a few things on our guide pages no one is going to care if remove the extension. My current CSS page just changes a few things like colors, spacing of the <pre></pre> sections, and header fonts/thickness/widths. We only need the power to do a few things overall so it shouldn't be that hard to come up with something.

I'm of the same opinion. A few things users might want to customize:

  • <pre> Tags
  • Font Colors
  • Border/Line Colors
  • Headers
  • ...


#4 z929669

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 03:24 PM

On user pages, that is fine, but not on pages supported by the site (e.g., user-created guides that we support in the forums). We need to define a flexible standard for those. Customizing any of the elements above subverts the site look/feel.

 

The only exception would be Neo's guide. That one is grandfathered in, as Neo has been with us from the beginning, as has his guide, essentially. All other user guides are relatively recent.

 

We'll be open to input regarding the flexible standards though. We just need to set a baseline for consistency and discourage gross deviation from that.



#5 TechAngel85

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 03:43 PM

On user pages, that is fine, but not on pages supported by the site (e.g., user-created guides that we support in the forums). We need to define a flexible standard for those. Customizing any of the elements above subverts the site look/feel.

This...I don't understand. I get this for guides like ENB, INIs, MO, xEdit, etc. However, it's a very common practice to have a "theme" for guides/pages that cover a different subject entirely.

 

Go and http://www.bethsoft.com/ and click on Games. Click through the different games. You'll notice the main elements of the site stay consistent, however, font colors, background images, headings, etc all change according to the game that is selected. This same behavior is seen on Steam, Nexus, Origin, game developer websites, etc etc.

 

There's no reason from my point of view that the custom guides can't have a customer theme in relation to some of the elements on the page (fighting for the users here). These guides have nothing to do with STEP besides us providing the space for them to be hosted and a forum thread. Those aren't any reasons to lock custom guides into the rest of the site's theme other than maintenance...and even then we're not the ones maintaining those Guides so that shouldn't be a problem. We simply have to set up the initial tools and then let them be used...which DY seems to have a knack for doing.



#6 TechAngel85

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 03:50 PM

Granted this is a wiki and not a normal HTML website so I don't know what is all possible. Wiki coding consistently frustrates me. Give me a normal website any day over wiki! :^_^:



#7 z929669

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 03:54 PM

Try to grasp the idea of a 'flexible' standard. This confers a degree of freedom with constraint. See your own examples on the Nexus ... they all have same layout and fonts and styles. Only color theme and backgroud images differ, and those differences are the 'allowable' differences dictated by the flexible standard. (and as you say, this is not a problem, because Nexus main site is not a wiki, and ONLY the design team can edit and thereby dictate color themes and background images).

 

The entire Nexus site conforms to a common look/feel standard. The Nexus main site has the one you refer to, the Nexus wiki has another, and the Nexus forums yet another. None of them change based on supported game (aside from color and background image).

 

All elements have identical spatial parameters, widgets, buttons, etc. All behavior is consistent. That is what we want for this site. It requires definition of the flexible standard (which we have yet to finalize).



#8 TechAngel85

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 04:00 PM

Try to grasp the idea of a 'flexible' standard. This confers a degree of freedom with constraint. See your own examples on the Nexus ... they all have same layout and fonts and styles. Only color theme and backgroud images differ, and those differences are the 'allowable' differences dictated by the flexible standard.

 

The entire Nexus site conforms to a common look/feel standard. The Nexus main site has the one you refer to, the Nexus wiki has another, and the Nexus forums yet another. None of them change based on supported game (aside from color and background image).

 

All elements have identical spatial parameters, widgets, buttons, etc. All behavior is consistent. That is what we want for this site. It requires definition of the flexible standard (which we have yet to finalize).

This has been what I've been grasping at so we're on the same page, however, if this is going to be possible to do within a wiki...I have no idea. I tend to code my pages as I would normally and then go have and fight the wiki coding to try to make it do what I feel it should be doing.



#9 z929669

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 04:04 PM

Wiki is definitely more flexible, since anyone can edit, and crafty people can subvert certain standards. What we can do is protect pages and discourage certain behaviors, but there is always a degree of flexibility that cannot be constrained.

 

We are just making it very easy to maintain these deviations by having the CSS extension and creating certain templates.



#10 DoubleYou

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 05:24 PM

Hehe... heh he he

 

heh

 

Sorry. LOL

 

I never learned to code. I only ever learned this:

 

/snip crafty people can subvert certain standards

 

Somehow I figured my my Form:Guide and Template:Heading would become controversial. I made them because S4N said this type of style deviation should be made in templates... so I made an easy way to implement it!



#11 stoppingby4now

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 08:00 PM

Keep in mind that wikis that have varying styles such as aspiring different games, do so such that standard wiki text provides a consistent look and feel. That is what needs to be strived for.

A visual editor will be coming probably someone soon, which will open editing to more people, mostly those that don't want to learn wiki text, much less attempt to confirm to a look by also embedding html. Wiki text should be used in articles, not html. It isn't a website engine, and we want consistency, and ease in editing for all. C complex layouts should be relegated to templates.

Everyone is free to do what they want on their user pages, but main articles need consistency.

Also, suggestions are always welcome for improving the main theme for layout such that everyone benefits.

We'll be putting together some guidelines for the wiki soon.

#12 Proton

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 09:37 PM

I’d just like to say that randomly deciding to look at the forums for the first time, and having clicked this thread as the first thing to read, finding myself and my work addressed and praised by name brings me an exorbitant amount of happiness.
 
Regarding the discussion, “easiest to maintain” depends on whether you want users or administrators maintaining it. If I as a user had CSS access, I probably wouldn’t have made the template.
 
Presently, though, viewing CSS and templates as equal options, I admit I do lean towards templates because it helps avoid <span> messes while allowing more control over exactly what is displayed instead of only CSS styling.
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#13 stoppingby4now

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 09:59 PM

Easiest to maintain for the Wiki means that articles use wiki syntax. It's much easier too change the skin too reflect changes wiki-wide and pesticide consistency than it is to have to deal with massive edits due too over use of html.

Templates also make things easier by keeping the more complex coding as a resource, where edits can also be applied to multiple consumers. Both of which will be supported by the visual editor, further making it more accessible to those that don't want to learn wiki syntax, but would still like too contribute.

Consistency in presentation is also a key factor, though we will need to come up with a solution to support games beyond Skyrim, which will include providing alternate, and somewhat unique, styling.

Templates are definitely the way to go too avoid storage messes among other things, so you're doing good.



#14 DoubleYou

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 10:25 PM

The main thing I'm worried about with the emphasis on templates is the possibility of going beyond the limit of templates on a page.



#15 Proton

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Posted 29 June 2015 - 10:28 PM

You mean a limit to the number of templates a page can contain? I wasn't aware such a thing existed. Can you refer me to where I can find more information on it?


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