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Realistic Lighting Overhaul (by The Realistic Lighting Team)

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#31 rpsgc

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 07:21 AM

@MontyMM,

Sydney was most likely referring to this post:

RLO has some great shadows. It's colors are way off though. EL&FX more closely resembles the light spectrum generated by fires' date=' and especially candles. In this regard, [b']RLO is off base and not something I care for due to lack of realism[/b]. This can hopefully be adjusted once Vision Lighting comes out, but for now I'm enjoying RLO + EL&FX.


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#32 MontyMM

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 07:22 AM

I've witnessed the pressure created by ignorant, entitled douchebags on the Nexus, and it's caused me to blow off some steam from time to time (!).  But, it's important not to conflate that noise with the reasonably-stated perceptions and opinions of someone like S4N.  He and Sydney may respectfully disagree on certain points, and that's fine.  If a mob then seize upon those views to berate Sydney and offend him, that IS a problem, but one entirely distinct from the original comments.  My view is that the standard of behaviour on the Nexus is frequently very poor indeed, and that anyone releasing their work there must choose to tune out the bad noise.  There are always ants at the picnic.  I don't honestly think it would be rational to allow that nonsense to affect one emotionally - the evidence for massive appreciation and praise is overwhelming.
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#33 rpsgc

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 07:25 AM

I'm just going to quote Sydney:

This is actually worrying for our team because a lot of research went into light dispersion and colours of flames. To make false comments about RLO on such guides can cause problems for modders and it's users. These comments are nothing more than personal opinion but are passed on as facts by people with no knowledge in the field (as we can tell).

I even saw a comment about how RLO doesn't match the temperatures of flames in Skyrim in degrees Celsius and their effects on lights - totally absurd stuff and things that cannot be even known. How does one even know the temperature of a flame in Skyrim??? Even the animation colour's are little to go off.


EDIT: Perceptions and opinions are all well and good when they are stated as such and nothing more.
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#34 toshaka

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 07:35 AM

I agree with the both of you. I on purpose didnt mention s4n in my post. Cos that is just pointing fingers. I do agree sydney and s4n may disagree with eachother, but just like you said it affects someone easily if it is just 1 of the many things. @rpsgc True perceptions and opinions are good, but it is not allways stated as such. Thats the problem and some people use it to attack others. Specially on nexus I am afraid :(
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#35 MontyMM

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 07:37 AM

I still believe that it is acceptable to hold a different opinion on what the facts are - correctly or incorrectly. You won't have a very healthy debate in any arena if you simply accuse the opposing postion of spreading falsehoods. EDIT: Just to be clear on what I'm suggesting. Ignore the dbags for what they are, and if you take issue with someone else's interpretation of the facts, come here, debate it rigorously (as we do all the time), and don't take it personally.
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#36 torminater

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 07:44 AM

Well me personally, I am enjoying RLO to it's full potential. Using Skyrealism Vanilla preset it looks awesome plus I have the little gimmicks ENB is able to offer. I'm looking forward to implement RLO's future modules! I actually find myself being confused when I've been a longer time in a cell edited by RLO and changing into a not reworked cell since lighting seems to be "off" :D Does anybody know by chance whether DLC are going to be supported by RLO? I think the lighting in Solstheim is very Morrowind like - not that I don't like that, but it just breaks immersion/realism for me. Of course, yeah you got the volcano going mad nearby... still, I think Sydney will be able to get a lot more out of this setting :) Me, I didn't realize that the STEP forums are that much of a opinion maker in the modding scene. To me it's the discussions from a lot of different points of view that makes the forum here interesting. Anybody who solely relies on the criticism - which is in 99% of the time CONSTRUCTIVE - to build his/her opinion about a project should rethink their strategy. Sydney, if you're reading this: Go on, man, you're amazing! It's great that there are people like you out there, who devote that much effort into an entertaining game to make it even better without getting paid to do so. Criticism is there to make your project better and more mature. Just understand that you'll never be able to silence all of the negative voices out there. Build on those that appreciate what you're doing! :-)
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#37 alt3rn1ty

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 07:48 AM

Yep, Sydney has to put in a lot more effort than your average modder too being colour blind

He has to use digital or hex colour values to ensure what *normal site people should be seeing for any particular colour.

I researched colour blindness for a good palette for the old Wrye Bash Pictorial Guide screens reference post, and came across various data tables which can be used ... a simple example of which is here ( not the colour palette, the CMYK / RGB values on the right ). A more expanded one giving hex and RGB percentage is on wikipaedia here

*normal = everyone of us can be slightly colour blind in our perception, either Deuteranope / Protanope / Tritanope

Edit: For anyone interested : ColorPicker is a handy web based tool
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#38 rpsgc

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 07:49 AM

@torminater

Next Module Releases (estimated within 2-4 weeks - delayed due to Dragonborn testing) :

  • Major Cities - Exteriors (Will be a FULLY complete module).
  • Dawnguard Patch (Will be a FULLY complete module).
  • Vision Lighting Pre-Set.

So, yes.


@MontyMM

It's his mod, his hard work. You don't have to praise, or be supportive, but at least make sure your criticism is constructive. Saying it sucks just because, or it's not realistic because you say so isn't constructive.

I just find it upsetting how people can so easily dismiss (to put it mildly) someone else's work.
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#39 toshaka

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 07:50 AM

I still believe that it is acceptable to hold a different opinion on what the facts are - correctly or incorrectly. You won't have a very healthy debate in any arena if you simply accuse the opposing postion of spreading falsehoods.

EDIT: Just to be clear on what I'm suggesting. Ignore the dbags for what they are, and if you take issue with someone else's interpretation of the facts, come here, debate it rigorously (as we do all the time), and don't take it personally.

I do agree MontyMM, but sydney may be just like me, atleast for me it sometimes is hard to see what is opinion and what is being accused.
Atleast that is for me, partly cos of my Autism tho. (if not all)

And yeah this forum is good and nice with discussions :)

But this is just 1 in many that hit the RLO team.
Like the last drip in a bucket so to speak.
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#40 MontyMM

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 07:58 AM

@MontyMM

It's not supposed to be a debate. It's his mod, his hard work. You don't have to praise, or be supportive, but at least make sure your criticism is constructive. Saying it sucks just because, or it's not realistic because you say so isn't constructive.

Well, by definition a process of constructive criticism and response is a form of debate, and can certainly include disagreements about factual interpretations.  S4N is hardly saying "it sucks just because", or anything of the sort - he said the spectrum is off base, and could perhaps be corrected with Vision Lighting.  Sounds like a perfectly reasonable and constructive statement to me, to which Sydney is very welcome to say, "You're wrong about that, and I don't intend to change it."
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#41 rpsgc

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 08:05 AM

Saying "In my opinion/I think it's not realistic" is different than "It's not realistic". One is your opinion, the other is passing your opinion as fact. And I'll leave it at that. It's become apparent it's not worth pursuing it further.
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#42 MontyMM

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 08:13 AM

It is not necessary to preface every statement with "in my opinion" - in fact, that is redundant, because it must be the case.  There is no substantive difference between, "that is the wrong colour", and, "in my opinion, that is the wrong colour." EDIT: I want to clarify what I mean here. When I say it is redundant, what I mean is that it is logically unnecessary, because it is impossible for a person to make a statement that is not their opinion. Even if I say, "That is definitely, absolutely, one hundred percent true," that is still clearly just my opinion of what the truth is. This business of saying IMO, and IMHO, is a nicety of speech (which can be seen as a polite gesture), but it does not in any way modify the meaning of what you are saying.
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#43 toshaka

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 08:14 AM

Lets just leave it at that. Everything else would just fuel the fire. Just saying sydney doesnt want to be in this discussion. I can perfectly understand why, he has more on his mind then just this.
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#44 toshaka

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 08:16 AM

[quote name=''MontyMM' pid='23991' dateline='1360502015']It is not necessary to preface every statement with "in my opinion" - in fact' date=' that is redundant, because it must be the case.  There is no substantive difference between, "that is the wrong colour", and, "in my opinion, that is the wrong colour."[/quote']
Actually there is.
First one is actually (in my opinion) saying that its a fact.
The second is really saying what is my opinion even tho it may not be a fact.

Atleast thats how it looks for me, wich I must say as I said before.
Everyone thinks diffirently, it would be a boring world if they didnt.

Edit: Ugh we are going way offtopic and too dramatic
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#45 MontyMM

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Posted 10 February 2013 - 08:22 AM

Lets just leave it at that.

Everything else would just fuel the fire.
Just saying sydney doesnt want to be in this discussion.
I can perfectly understand why, he has more on his mind then just this.

The thing is toshaka, I don't see this as a fire at all.  There was an initial debate, and now rspgc and I are having a different but related, friendly debate on the modes of expression that are acceptable.  To me, this is all to the good - no fire involved!  Really, I hope Sydney will take encouragement from the general response, and this will all be a storm in a teacup.

EDIT: You're right about the off-topic, but it did seem like quite an urgent point to address within the thread. I would hate for Sydney to feel badly unnecessarily.
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