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Strange pop up when rebuilding Bashed Patch.


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#1 CUDERcore

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Posted 20 February 2018 - 12:45 PM

What does it mean?

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#2 DarkladyLexy

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Posted 20 February 2018 - 12:49 PM

this means the Lore base loading screens and better dynamic snow need to be loaded and saved in the CK.


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#3 CUDERcore

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Posted 20 February 2018 - 02:55 PM

thanks. could you point me to a walkthrough/tutorial for that process pls? i've never had to do that b4. i have zero experience with the ck but i do have it installed


Edited by CUDERcore, 20 February 2018 - 03:04 PM.

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#4 CUDERcore

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Posted 20 February 2018 - 03:38 PM

Ok so I'm taking shots in the dark. after making an ini edit to allow ck to load multiple masters, I hit "load master/plugin files", selected "Better Dynamic Snow - NSUTR Patch.esp", set as active plugin then hit OK. I got a bunch warning pop ups. do i need to worry about any of these warnings or should i just ignore them and save?

 

warnings: https://imgur.com/a/ZqjxH


Edited by CUDERcore, 20 February 2018 - 03:42 PM.

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#5 Sharlikran

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Posted 04 July 2018 - 12:12 AM

What DarkLadyLexy said is true, but when you load a plugin into the CK it will rip out all the ESP masters from the header of the mod. It only allows ESM flagged masters. So before you do this you have to load an unmodified original copy of the mod in xEdit and set all the ESP masters to have the ESM flag. Then when the CK loads it sees the ESP files as true masters (False flagged files) and leaves them as part of the mod.  There should be some but possibly cryptic help in the xEdit training manual linked on every description page on the Nexus.


Edited by Sharlikran, 04 July 2018 - 05:36 AM.

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#6 TechAngel85

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Posted 04 July 2018 - 02:51 AM

Ok so I'm taking shots in the dark. after making an ini edit to allow ck to load multiple masters, I hit "load master/plugin files", selected "Better Dynamic Snow - NSUTR Patch.esp", set as active plugin then hit OK. I got a bunch warning pop ups. do i need to worry about any of these warnings or should i just ignore them and save?

warnings: https://imgur.com/a/ZqjxH

I was planning an update with some new meshes for this mod. Been waiting on Sparrow to send me the files, but may go ahead and take care of this patch for everyone. I've grown to seriously hate that new check in WB. >_<

#7 Sharlikran

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Posted 04 July 2018 - 05:51 AM

The record verification has always been there and xEdit has a warning as well but in xEdit it is worded different. There are two warnings. 1) For Skyrim SE only that tells users that to correct the missing bytes it needs to be loaded into the CK. I felt this wasn't as derogatory as telling the user that the author had uploaded an old Skyrim plugin as a Skyrim SE mod without saving it in the CK. Besides we decided not to update old Skyrim plugins automatically when saving from SSEEdit. We tried that once before by converting BODT to BOD2 with TES5Edit in one of the very early versions 3.0.25.  We were not able to keep plugins from breaking. We had to remove it and upload 3.0.26. 2) The second warning is simply when any record or subrecord is a different size then expected which has always been present in WB.

 

Never the less, Wrye Bash can't take 8 bytes when in needs 12 and compare nothing to other records that have 12 bytes and determine which to use. That is like trying to add 1/8 to 1/12 without finding a common denominator. Nor can it properly decide what to add for those extra 4 bytes.  With some of the records that changed, Bethesda added bytes to the record effectively shifting any important data like FormIDs.


Edited by Sharlikran, 04 July 2018 - 10:33 AM.

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#8 TechAngel85

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Posted 04 July 2018 - 10:44 AM

The record verification has always been there and xEdit has a warning as well but in xEdit it is worded different. There are two warnings. 1) For Skyrim SE only that tells users that to correct the missing bytes it needs to be loaded into the CK. I felt this wasn't as derogatory as telling the user that the author had uploaded an old Skyrim plugin as a Skyrim SE mod without saving it in the CK. Besides we decided not to update old Skyrim plugins automatically when saving from SSEEdit. We tried that once before by converting BODT to BOD2 with TES5Edit in one of the very early versions 3.0.25. We were not able to keep plugins from breaking. We had to remove it and upload 3.0.26. 2) The second warning is simply when any record or subrecord is a different size then expected which has always been present in WB.

Never the less, Wrye Bash can't take 8 bytes when in needs 12 and compare nothing to other records that have 12 bytes and determine which to use. That is like trying to add 1/8 to 1/12 without finding a common denominator. Nor can it properly decide what to add for those extra 4 bytes. With some of the records that changed, Bethesda added bytes to the record effectively shifting any important data like FormIDs.

I understand its purpose, but didn't Zilav say something along the lines that some plugins created in xEdit for SSE really have nothing wrong with them, which WB is tossing that error out for? I think it was on a bug report on GitHub, but I'd have to go back and read it again.



#9 Sharlikran

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Posted 04 July 2018 - 02:41 PM

If you feel this is getting slightly off topic, please move this and your post as needed, and I apologize. If not and if it's still on topic enough because it is about the OPs error, then...

 

What the xEdit team has mentioned in the past is that the game can see and handle the differences between Skyrim SE records (Form Version 44) and older formats at run time. The same basic idea as the Windows compatibility mode for Windows 98 or XP when running under Windows 7 or higher.  It has nothing to do with how many bytes there are in the plugin be it 8 or 12.

I have seen Zilav talk about used data from old Skyrim plugins.  Specifically when the old Skyrim record has used data in it that was shifted because of the updates that Bethesda made to the Skyrim SE records. That would go for required data that didn't previously exist in old Skyrim Records. When the data that is shifted or required is not manipulated correctly and the record is the same size as Form Version 44, but the Form Version is something other then 44, it is guaranteed to cause an issue. If I remember correctly.

 

The misunderstanding came from conversations about Form Version 44 in Skyrim SE.  No version of xEdit has ever changed the Form Version or record format when making a Merge Patch. No version of Wrye Bash has ever saved the Form Version into the Bash Patch because the original code was for Oblivion which didn't have a Form Version. Since the Wrye Bash code has for the most part remained Oblivion specific it just stayed as it has always been.

In xEdit if the Form Version was 20 in Skyrim.esm and the size of the record was 8 bytes but the new size was 12, xEdit would save it as 12 bytes and Form Version 20 instead of 43 or whatever.  That was for the merge Patch for sure, I can't remember if updating a record from 8 bytes to 12 changes the Form Version when you are just editing a record.  Since it had been that way since Elminster made xEdit it was left that way. It was never about editing records in their existing format regardless of whether or not they were Form Version 43, 40, 20, 30 or whatever. It was about Merge Patches, the Bash Patch, record truncation, the lack of the proper Form Version in the plugin header, and possible save game corruption as a result.

That conversation went from a simple question, to a hypothesis, to if there is not proper Form Versions and if the records are not saved in the proper format that it is an affront to modding. There was mention that the Bash Patch not having a Form Version was leading to save game corruption. People shared other posts from other sites about the issue and that those posts contained reports of random crashes as a result of mods not being Form Version 44. I was even told personally that at least 5 prominent mod authors "that know what they are doing" (they never spoke to me though) had crashes because of mods not being Form Version 44 and because the Bash Patch didn't have a Form Version.  The position of some that believed it was a serious issue mentioned that all mods without Form Version 44 and that the Skyrim SE version of Wrye Bash should be removed from the Skyrim SE Nexus until the issue was addressed. You can read all that in the official WB thread if you really have to see it.  

I am just trying to answer your question and eliviate the concern you have toward the warning and why the warning is present. Aside from that I ask that we don't start the conversation up again in the official thread or comment too much further. Although, I will be respectful of your comments and concerns of course. Because the conversation really got out of hand. There were people complaining to me that I had to find a solution, complaints toward others and sometimes with expletives or harsh words. In the end it lead to rewriting how Wrye Bash saved the Bash Patch header. The Form Version is now added to the Bash Patch. I can't remember what changes if any were made to xEdit.

So in the end, even though I am reiterating a few things. Wrye Bash has always had an error or warning that the record is not the size that is expected, period. It existed prior to Skyrim SE.  What Wrye Bash does when the record size is incorrect is it won't process that record. What lead to the warning was that users started posting the error and asking how to fix it.  Since there is no fix except that the author updates the plugin, I added additional verbiage for the records that changed in Skyrim SE. In other words if the plugin has no records that changed, and doesn't have any Form Version 44 records, the warning will not appear.  That way people know why it was happening, that Wrye Bash would not be addressing it (but never had), and a simple solution if the mod user chose to do so.

 

My personal opinion is that if Bethesda changed the record that the plugin should be saved with the CK and then the mod author should compare the plugins to ensure the mod still does what author intended.  There is a "compare to..." option for plugins in xEdit. The CK no longer corrupts one of the records used by weather mods, one of the shaders, I forget which one. So saving the plugin is more stable then before.  If none of the records changed, I still feel the mod should be saved but don't have any definitive position on plugins without records that changed between Skyrim and Skyrim SE. I have not experienced the extreme issues reported by some, but I have had my game run much smoother once I updated the plugin and tested all assets and updated them with the 3rd party tools as needed. There is merit to the reports I just feel they may be exaggerated.


Edited by Sharlikran, 04 July 2018 - 02:56 PM.

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#10 TechAngel85

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Posted 05 July 2018 - 03:09 AM

Thanks for the background and prospective around that.


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