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Non-expert inside thought of the possibilities (banter)



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#1 D1Z4STR

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Posted 15 May 2019 - 12:22 AM

As long as TES V has been around and from the beginning of time in the modding community until today, mod creators and all over the world desire and enjoy building in and on the wonderful world of Skyrim. I think everyone can agree there. As non-mod creator we enjoy setting up an experience either suited to our needs or in the form of following a nice guide with everything laid out for us, etc. What I want to get at in this conversation (not knowing how many thoughtful replies it will get) is about the underlying issue of the TES 5 engine and its framework. From OLDRIM to SE there has been every mod under the sun made and there has been fixes and tools, etc etc. And as long as I have known throughout the TES games is that everyone has different issues in game with anything from object placement, faces, LOD issues, ctd's, the list goes on. Now if person A and B had the same exact PC specs and same exact Skyrim install/mod setup I am pretty sure crashing or issues will happen differently on both systems (due to the core issue the engine). Anyway, I do not want to ramble to much. What I want to know from this intelligent community is that why has no one attacked the source/core of TES 5's issues which is its engine and its framework. We produce all these amazing mods in the CK and scripts and tool functions, SKSE, and so on but why or has anyone attempted to fix the game at its core? Either it is must be illegal to do or no one has come together to start working on it like I am thinking. The hope or result would be something along the lines of Open Morrowind where we have stamped out a bad engine. Proper programming and methods of building a game/engine have been introduced to recreate everything from scratch. That might be a solution or add fixes or edits to the engine somehow. I know it can be done! We are able to mod/edit/hack everything these days... I can imagine the day either TES 5's mods shine high and mighty when that person or team comes along and fixes or edits or even recreates the engine for smoother operation, handling, etc. Maybe then after all these years crashing and oddities will decrease numerously and mod authors and users can stop blaming him or her on what they did or what they didn't do, you get the picture. Not asking for a perfect world where there are no crashes and everything is flawless with everyone's build, but rather who is going to take the engine to the next level and try to beat these issues we have had for years. We also know mods are being updated regularly and are partially to blame for issues as they are not finished and or have some kinks and need more time to progress. But just think about the core of the game and if there was a way to do what I am talking about that's not just a mod on top of a mod fix. If there is a will there is a way and it has just not happened yet. The closest thing I could think of is a team like OpenMW doing Skyrim someday. Oh the happiness and joy of that announcement to us all. Imagine that. I hope this makes some of us think about what we are doing now and what someone could potentially do, its just that first step. It has been done before many times in other games. 


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#2 Shadriss

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Posted 15 May 2019 - 02:37 PM

...Either it is must be illegal to do...

Nailed it in one. Making the kind of changes that you refer to would require reverse engineering the code base, changing it, recompiling it, and then distributing the executable for that new code base. Any one of those things is, IIRC, against the EULA. All of them together most certainly are. This is why the Unofficial Patches are all changes to the records of the game, not the engine itself.

 

Take a look at the whole Skyrim Together thing that's happening. In recent days, it has been thought that the team might have stolen code from the SKSE team (I'm not going to get into that discussion, just using this for reference). That mod is now (reportedly) undergoing a complete code rewrite (which the team claims has NOTHING to do with the SKSE theft accusation). All of that effort and stink over a bit of code that does not provide any profit at all (in the monetary sense). Now imagine someone tries to do that with the actual EXE files from Bethesda... tell me that a take-down request/order wouldn't descend on said team like a lightning strike. It's not code theft (in the strictest form of the term), but it is altering someone else's work without their permission, which is the same theoretical situation in both instances.

 

The CORE of the engine (as you refer to it) lies in those files that we, as a modding community, are not allowed to mess with. And thus... here we are today.

 

Or so is my understanding.

 

Keep in mind, this is the exact same engine that has been used since Morrowwind (yes, really), and presumably is still being used in development of new titles. This is not a case of "it's old and not actively used anymore" that is the case with abandon-ware. Therefore, the answer to your question of "who is going to take the engine to the next level" is... Bethesda itself. 

 

May God have Mercy on the Code Base. :)


Edited by Shadriss, 15 May 2019 - 02:40 PM.

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#3 headhunter3222

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Posted 18 May 2019 - 05:53 AM

Amen to that, we can only hope that publishers will stop seeing the mod community as a enemy and more like free advertisement and partners, Developers already know this but the have to listen to the overlord shareholders of the publishers.


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#4 paradoxbound

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Posted 31 May 2019 - 05:25 PM


 

Keep in mind, this is the exact same engine that has been used since Morrowwind (yes, really), and presumably is still being used in development of new titles. This is not a case of "it's old and not actively used anymore" that is the case with abandon-ware. Therefore, the answer to your question of "who is going to take the engine to the next level" is... Bethesda itself. 

 

The "Ship of Thesus" or "Trigger's Broom" depending on your cultural references spring to mind with regards to Bethesda or any long running code base. Same functionality but refactored repeatedly.

As an aside I am currently working with a 40 year old main frame system that was once capable of running Linux in emulation and is now run entirely in Linux in emulation. :confusion:


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