ACCEPTED Realistic AI Detection SE (by OlivierDoorenbos)

[TechAngel85]

Discussion topic:

Realistic AI Detection SE by OlivierDoorenbos

Wiki Link

 

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[SaintBourbon]

What have people's experiences with this mod been like?
 
I really like a lot of the changes that were made to detection, particularly the bug fixes, but I'm finding that for a sneak combat playstyle it has drastically slowed down my gameplay just because I have to slow walk sneak through entire dungeons (or forts, camps, etc) because of how far away NPCs are able to instantly detect you even while sneaking and from multiple rooms away.
 
Also the mod author has pointed out some incompatibilities with Cathedral Weathers.

[TechAngel85]

This mod is more or less a stand-in for kryptopyr's "Stealth Skills Rebalanced" until it gets ported.

[Greg]

I think the STEP LE guide used Stealth Skills Rebalanced by kryptopyr that changes stealth in similar ways, although I seem to recall it also optionally changed the perk trees. It looks as if Realistic AI Detection is very similar in that light and sound affect detection and the detection radius is expanded. As a result, stealth is much more difficult at the lower levels. You can read the discussion on Stealth Skills Rebalanced for some insights into the differences between vanilla.

 

My general approach is to enable stealth as often as possible (especially when waking along the roads or through the woods) because your character gains some stealth skills when moving past animals and NPCs that haven't detected your character. I also take the path between Belethor's General Goods and Ysolda's house in Whiterun to walk around (slowly) behind the guard at Belethor's General Goods to level up sneak skills. This can be really tedious and time consuming at the lower levels. The woods around Whiterun is a good place to sneak around provided you stay away from the bandits and the tiger.

 

I very rarely use anything anything other than a bow and I prefer the faster bows that do more damage that allow me to use long-ranged sneak attacks while hiding in bushes or around big rocks with an easy escape path. My general plan is to get in one (and hopefully two) quick shots, get behind something so I can't be seen, and run out of the search radius. Unfortunately, this is a lot harder to do at the very low levels and the Imperial bow doesn't help much.

 

Wear dark colored light armor to minimize noise and light reflections. Wearing heavy metal armor is somewhat like wearing Christmas bells and wearing Elven heavy armor is somewhat like wearing Christmas lights.

 

Stay in the dark areas of interiors well away from light sources. This doesn't really help much at the very low levels, but you'll stay hidden better once you get a few perks.

[TechAngel85]

I think the STEP LE guide used Stealth Skills Rebalanced by kryptopyr that changes stealth in similar ways, although I seem to recall it also optionally changed the perk trees. It looks as if Realistic AI Detection is very similar in that light and sound affect detection and the detection radius is expanded. As a result, stealth is much more difficult at the lower levels. You can read the discussion on Stealth Skills Rebalanced for some insights into the differences between vanilla.

 

My general approach is to enable stealth as often as possible (especially when waking along the roads or through the woods) because your character gains some stealth skills when moving past animals and NPCs that haven't detected your character. I also take the path between Belethor's General Goods and Ysolda's house in Whiterun to walk around (slowly) behind the guard at Belethor's General Goods to level up sneak skills. This can be really tedious and time consuming at the lower levels. The woods around Whiterun is a good place to sneak around provided you stay away from the bandits and the tiger.

 

I very rarely use anything anything other than a bow and I prefer the faster bows that do more damage that allow me to use long-ranged sneak attacks while hiding in bushes or around big rocks with an easy escape path. My general plan is to get in one (and hopefully two) quick shots, get behind something so I can't be seen, and run out of the search radius. Unfortunately, this is a lot harder to do at the very low levels and the Imperial bow doesn't help much.

 

Wear dark colored light armor to minimize noise and light reflections. Wearing heavy metal armor is somewhat like wearing Christmas bells and wearing Elven heavy armor is somewhat like wearing Christmas lights.

 

Stay in the dark areas of interiors well away from light sources. This doesn't really help much at the very low levels, but you'll stay hidden better once you get a few perks.

My play style is very similar. I typically play a "ranger" type character that is:

• Race: wood elf
• Primary skill: archery
• Secondary skill: one-handed
• I also focus on alchemy so that I'm not spending a ton of money on potions.

With that in mind, I typically sneak when around enemies so that I may use my primary skill (also getting that 2x sneak damage)...meaning I'm always sneaking around dungeons. This levels the sneak skill up fairly quickly. However I never sneak around towns/road unless I'm doing a quest for the Thieves Guild.

 

As for perk points, I typically only spends a few on the sneak tree. Since the skill levels up fairly quickly, I find the points aren't worth it after 3-4 points are spent. Most my points early on are spent on archery. I also happened across an easy way to get a falmer bow so that is always my second stop when I start a new game. It's a powerful bow that will last a good while, especially if you're able to improve it at a blacksmith. One-handed weapon are my backups for when close combat is unavoidable. I spend very little on magic and will typically only get basic healing spells.

 

I have found this mod to be a suitable substitute until Stealth Skills Rebalanced comes out. It does want this mod does and more.

[Mercury71]

Did ride in to Fort Neugrad. Sitting on my horse in the middle of the fort and npc's running around saying "what was that" until finaly after quite some timew they spot me on my horse right out in the open.

 

I am no expert on AI so i wonder what could cause this? My ENB? Convienient horses?

[kabepo]

> I am no expert on AI so i wonder what could cause this? My ENB? Convienient horses?

 

Have a look at this post by the author of Realistic AI Detection

Nearly every Weather and Lighting mod tested for sneak detection balance (linked).

The results show that the STEP mods Cathedral Weathers and Luminosity, and an ENB with darker lighting, do not perform very well for NPC sneak detection.

[steeleb]

I feel a bit of warning is needed with this mod and people that are going to play stealth builds. Would recommend lite or none, for anyone wanting a more vanilla experience. Especially since AI in the title is a bit of a misnomer, since it really only affects detection.  It does not re-balance behaviors, AI and as a result can make for some frustrating game play in certain quest conditions, where stealth can become non-viable.  The timers for alert add to the frustration, because they will sit and search for a very long time.  IMO, Skyrim is a RPG that abstracts stealth mechanics through stats, not seeing how nerfing the stat really jives with STEP.

Edited February 4, 2022 by steeleb

[TechAngel85]

8 hours ago, steeleb said:

I feel a bit of warning is needed with this mod and people that are going to play stealth builds. Would recommend lite or none, for anyone wanting a more vanilla experience. Especially since AI in the title is a bit of a misnomer, since it really only affects detection.  It does not re-balance behaviors, AI and as a result can make for some frustrating game play in certain quest conditions, where stealth can become non-viable.  The timers for alert add to the frustration, because they will sit and search for a very long time.  IMO, Skyrim is a RPG that abstracts stealth mechanics through stats, not seeing how nerfing the stat really jives with STEP.

To each their own? Can you provide two-three examples?

I ask because I play stealth when I play and never have these issues, but I'm a bit more realistic with my game. This mod mainly alters detection, but vanilla detection is awful because by the time you hit a few stealth perks you are sneaking around enemies as if they weren't there. FAR too easy and unrealistic. Yes...if you make yourself known, enemies will search for you longer. Why shouldn't they? They shouldn't just walk off shrugging their shoulders when their friend takes an arrow to the head right next to them. They should be on alert for some time after that. Realistically, they should never leave an alert state from that point on. I also don't think shealth should be an option at very turn...again, it's not realistic to think that I'd be able to complete every mission as a stealthy ninja. Some variety in my strategy will be needed.

Stealth, rather detection, in the game is determined partly by the player stats and partly by how much something is lit. There is an actual calculation going on to determine how much light is hitting things within the environment, including the player (player.gll in console). Go above the light threshold and you'll no longer be hidden. Do note the HUD icon isn't accurate. You can see the hidden icon and not really be hidden, if there are mods messing with the lighting too much. Interestingly enough, this calculation also determines when guards will equip their torches. Once the light level is low enough, their torches come out (I want to say this was round 50, but I can't remember for sure).

[z929669]

Agree.

No warning is necessary. The mod author clearly explains how the mod works and the lighting 'gotchas'. We heed this advice in our mod install instructions, so no warning seems necessary. It fixes a vanilla inconsistency, IMO.

[Greg]

I play as a stealth archer and I have to say the vanilla detection logic leaves a lot to be desired. I've literally had draugr run right into my character and not see me, and this is in relatively well-lit dungeons and I'm wearing ordinary leather armor. I also think the vanilla stealth mechanic forces NPCs to stop looking significantly sooner than expected.

This mod changes the stealth mechanics so it is more important to wear light/quiet armor and to stay in the shadows as much as possible. You won't get much out of sneaking if you're clanking through a dungeon wearing heavy metal armor and you are significantly more likely to be seen if you are in the light or light is reflecting off your armor, but it is not an overbearing hard-core mod. Yes, sneaking is more difficult at lower levels but it tends to balance the game as you increase levels and add perks.

[steeleb]

12 hours ago, TechAngel85 said:

To each their own? Can you provide two-three examples?

I ask because I play stealth when I play and never have these issues, but I'm a bit more realistic with my game. This mod mainly alters detection, but vanilla detection is awful because by the time you hit a few stealth perks you are sneaking around enemies as if they weren't there. FAR too easy and unrealistic. Yes...if you make yourself known, enemies will search for you longer. Why shouldn't they? They shouldn't just walk off shrugging their shoulders when their friend takes an arrow to the head right next to them. They should be on alert for some time after that. Realistically, they should never leave an alert state from that point on. I also don't think shealth should be an option at very turn...again, it's not realistic to think that I'd be able to complete every mission as a stealthy ninja. Some variety in my strategy will be needed.

Stealth, rather detection, in the game is determined partly by the player stats and partly by how much something is lit. There is an actual calculation going on to determine how much light is hitting things within the environment, including the player (player.gll in console). Go above the light threshold and you'll no longer be hidden. Do note the HUD icon isn't accurate. You can see the hidden icon and not really be hidden, if there are mods messing with the lighting too much. Interestingly enough, this calculation also determines when guards will equip their torches. Once the light level is low enough, their torches come out (I want to say this was round 50, but I can't remember for sure).

I thought  STEP was supposed to be a better more vanilla experience, the mod author does state Lite is a more vanilla experience does he not?  Couple of examples all from the same quest in East Empire company.

55 Stealth, wearing thief armor. 3 slots in improved stealth. and 1 in muffled sound.

1) The guard at the "U" in the water inlet near the first boat.  Could not find a place to hide as he walks by where I did not get spotted magically.  And his patrol doesn't allow you to pass.  My goal is to have fun, not retry every guard multiple times until I find a dim enough spot to pass, if one even exist... Is that more realistic, or just irritating.  Author spent a great deal of time testing against different weather models, what about scripted scenarios for stealth quest?  Is STEP supposed to add challenge in the name of subjective realism, because I've modded detection values?

Here was the guide says,

the Guide provides detailed, well-tested build instructions for a solid modded Skyrim that achieves an enhanced, vanilla experience. It's meant to be installed in its entirety and not piecemeal. 

How much "play testing was actually done" against cathedral and a variety of quest?  I believe if you check, it states that LITE should be used with Cathedral not Medium.  

2) Two guards talking as you walk in the second area.  As you approach the secret spider tunnel, in complete dark I was always triggered.  I honestly thought that was a glitch...  With these stats, it required combat...

3) Archer at the very end is in bright light, can't make it dim (as far as I know).   I can't get within 50 feet of this archer detecting me.

As for how detection works, the author was very clear on what he did. He made your skill less effective, and he made light significantly more important. However, since he did not change the behavior, AI, or or scripted behaviors in a variety of light situations (which we really can't control during quest) you just end up getting caught easier, is this fun?  The author even provides plots on how the mod behaves vs skills (early game vs late game).  You're more than 250% more likely to get caught late game, why because stats shouldn't matter in a RPG?  If you like the tedium, more power to you, hardly qualifies as an "enhanced vanilla experience".

12 hours ago, z929669 said:

Agree.

No warning is necessary. The mod author clearly explains how the mod works and the lighting 'gotchas'. We heed this advice in our mod install instructions, so no warning seems necessary. It fixes a vanilla inconsistency, IMO.

As pointed out, the mod author says Lite is more vanilla, and suggest Lite to be used with Cathedral.  So is the guide following the author's advice?  Also presents issues with exterior zones and STEP mods.  Not trying to rock the boat.  Led to infuriating game play for me, but it's not my guide. It is terrific guide, but this mod, needed to be reverted, since I feel it really broke the game for me, and kinda ruined my vanilla experience.

[steeleb]

20 minutes ago, Greg said:

I play as a stealth archer and I have to say the vanilla detection logic leaves a lot to be desired. I've literally had draugr run right into my character and not see me, and this is in relatively well-lit dungeons and I'm wearing ordinary leather armor. I also think the vanilla stealth mechanic forces NPCs to stop looking significantly sooner than expected.

This mod changes the stealth mechanics so it is more important to wear light/quiet armor and to stay in the shadows as much as possible. You won't get much out of sneaking if you're clanking through a dungeon wearing heavy metal armor and you are significantly more likely to be seen if you are in the light or light is reflecting off your armor, but it is not an overbearing hard-core mod. Yes, sneaking is more difficult at lower levels but it tends to balance the game as you increase levels and add perks.

Respectfully disagree. It's a brute force mod that reduces the affect of sneak from skills from 70% of total calculation to 30%, and increases light and sound in the calculation to 70%.  Even late in the game, your skills play very little affect.

Again I ask, is this an "enhanced well tested" vanilla experience?

Edited February 5, 2022 by steeleb

[steeleb]

I guess Imma casual, but STEP never said I had to have game.  I think a warning would be kind to us apes

From the Mod page:

Not suitable for casual gamers and console peasants. No liability will be accepted if these risk groups experience severe stress and feelings of inadequacy as a result of using this mod.
Approved for the glorious PCMR

[z929669]

Yeah, I agree we could be recommending an option or giving some quick guidance on the mod instructions. Something like:

"only Lite version is recommended with Cathedral Weathers"

I don't play much. Pretty much testing and modding only. I stopped playing a long time ago. I'm waiting until the game is perfect. Could be there by end of 2022 I should think for Requiem to fully fledge.

I'll let the others make the call, but that's my two cents based on the mod description, which is apparently very weather dependent. This was mentioned at some length on another topic as well.

PS: Guide followers should consider reading the mod descriptions as well