SKYRIMLE Harvest Overhaul (by Omeletter)

[rpsgc]

Average value is 4 or 5. Only three plants have a maximum value of more than 7 ingredients.

 

[z929669]

Still waaay too much IMO

[TechAngel85]

Z, have you actually played with the mod? You rarely get the max values.

[z929669]

I have NOT played with this mod. that is why I am not putting my foot down :P

 

Based on input from rootsrat though, this mod does what I suspected. More than 1 is too much. (no chance of zero is also too much IMO)

 

I will say that I am an avid alchemist role player myself. So I have definitive ideas on that system 9and this mod goes against my personal preferences)

[TechAngel85]

I used this mod in the past, however I did find that it made levelling alchemy not easier, but way too easy, so I ditched it. 

 

I  agree it adds to immersion, however, just to answer some of your points, Techangel - say you fight a sabrecat and you slash it across it's eyes. It's dead, but there are no eyes to "harvest" - that's why sometimes there are no eyes to take. And sometimes you would like to harvest a plant, but it turns out it's rotten or sick and the flowers cannot be used in a potion. 

And here's the thing... that is entirely possible; however, what about when you kill the animal with a ranged weapon, hitting it in the body or when you never strike the animal in the face? No eye from a harvest in that situation is breaking immersion and realism. Also, you obviously aren't going to be harvesting rotten plants and there is nothing in the game for this or when you harvested a plant in vanilla it would sometimes show a "rotten" status. Since this isn't in the game your point is mute until a mod adds this immersion. For this mod however, that point isn't valid because it's not adding that functionality to vanilla. It's just changing the values of the items harvested. Can't debate with things that aren't a part of the game unless it's a part of the mod. :P

So when I harvest a plant, I get a "portion" of flowers necessary to craft a potion. When I harvest a snowberry, I get a "handful" of them.

 

Also, think about it this way - with Harvest Overhaul you go to a bush and harvest 10 snowberries out of it. Yay! Great, realistic! Now you take one, ONE TINY SNOWBERRY, shove it in your mouth and you suddenly feel very weak - yay! Damage Stamina effect discovered. Hang on, you've just eaten ONE TINY SNOWBERRY and suddenly you realised it makes you feel very tired? Erm... Not so realistic, yes? But if you treat it as a "portion" (say, handful) it suddenly makes sense. You harvest a handful of snowberries, you eat them all and, yes, that MAY make you actually feel a weakened negative or positive effect. 

If you know anything about survival training then your counter argument is mute here as well. When you're "testing" a new, unknown food you NEVER eat a handful of it! You eat one or two and wait an hour for it to go through your system. If it's poisonous of has an ill effect, your body will let you know. So eating one berry and getting the effect is completely realistic and is in-line with any survival training you'll ever take.

How does getting 2/3/4 flowers from a bush breaks immersion but getting only 1 flower from a bush with a dozen or so' date=' doesn't?[/quote']

This is exactly my point and since the feature of "rotten" plants are not in vanilla or this point still stands. (see below)

Sorry' date=' but that is a flawed argument. 20 flowers on a plant does not translate into 20 potential flowers in your inventory. These individual flowers are representative of a quantity. they are not meant to be viewed literally as individual flowers. one flower, or anther, or piece of fish is representative of a 'realistic' amount.

 

Also, it is not the leveling that should be the concern, but the number of aliquots of the ingredient! With this mod, I can potentially make 3-10 potions  where I could previously only make one.

 

That is significantly unbalancing from the vanilla construct. It does not matter if we agree with the vanilla construct or not. the point is that it is not broken or 'wrong', so this mod is a gameplay-preference mod, and it belongs in a Pack for that reason.

 

I don't think that there is any debate other than the balance impact unless we change the STEP mandate, which we are not going to do. Additions like this open the door to many other like additions. Soon we would have a very different gameplay result than vanilla Skyrim ...

 

Can anyone demonstrate that this mod does not alter the balance of the game to benefit any player that chooses to collect even a single ingredient and use that to poison an arrow or create a potion?

 

EDIT: there can certainly be "zero" items harvested, depending on the skill of the harvester. it is about capturing *useful* ingredients. there is variation in plants and animals (and harvesters) that affect the amount of useful ingredients collected. Zero is totally realistic, and there are a wealth of moddeers and mods that would concur with that.[/quote']

There's nothing flawed about it because you don't get 20 flowers from the plant but you do get more than you would in vanilla. No offense, but your explanation here is completely ridiculous. Anyone can look at the flower plants in-game and tell you there is more than one or two flowers on it which is the vanilla harvest amount. Since there's not just one flower on the plant it makes complete since that you'd be able to harvest 5-10 of the 20 or so that is present on the bush. My rose bush outside my house is all the proof you'll need. No all the buds/flowers will be good for potion making when they bloom; however, at least half would be. This would translate into 5-8 flowers...not 1-2. (see below for images)

 

Your zero harvesting is a little silly too. Any two year old could harvest any of these plants because if you can bend over and pick a flower off the ground you can harvest the plants. The animal harvesting only requires the skill of skinning a animal. If you always get a pelt from a wolf, then you're skilled enough to harvest any of the animal ingredients. Hunting is a big thing here in Oklahoma, so I knew how to skin and clean animal by the age of 8. The only source of food in Skyrim is what you kill for the citizens. Hunting in this time period is historically an extremely common skill for simple survival. I don't thing there any question that most citizens of Skyrim would know how to harvest animals from the age of when they're old enough to hunt.

I completely agree that getting 7-10 of an ingredient is far to many but I think that only happens with the mountain flowers and not across the board for every type of plant or fungus. I think those are from 1-5 which i can handle because in game I've been getting 2 or 3 of stuff most of the time which I don't think unbalances alchemy. Actually it is more immersive (hate that word) to me because I don't have to stop to harvest plants as much now and I can just run around being a normal murdering psychopath instead of a murdering psychopath that enjoys botany.

This is also my point. Only the items that should have a larger harvest have a larger harvest. This mod is all about realism and immersion for me. I did a test for you guys. I harvested a few plants five times. Amount harvest-able from the plant is determined by the amount you visually see. You should also realize that when if comes to flowers the smaller bushes harvest less amounts (2-3avg) while the larger bushes harvest more (5-7avg).

 

 

Mushrooms. Harvest-able: 5. Harvested: 2-2-3-2-1

 

Lavender. Harvest-able: 20+ Harvested: 3-2-2-2-2

 

Cotton. Harvest-able: ~15 Harvested: 2-1-1-2-2

 

Red Flowers. Harvest-able: 20+ Harvested: 2-4-4-3-3

Purple. Harvest-able: 30+ Havested: 6-7-3-2-3

 

Thistle. Harvest-able (not entire plant is shown): 5+ Harvested: 1-3-3-2-2

 

 

 

After seeing the actual images of the plants, anyone that saying that the harvest amounts aren't realistic is blind. Especially you, Z, being a biologist you should better than anyone.

[TechAngel85]

With all that said, this does make it easier to make potions and level up alchemy the same way that Ars does with smithing. These two mods can easily be put in the same category in that respect as many of you have already mentioned and I'm inclined to agree with you all. Z, is viewing the mods in two different points of view and I also agree that Ars fixes other things, but in that same respect, Harvest Overhaul fixes the harvest amounts from my point of view (and the author's) to be more realistic when compared to the visuals of the plants. This mod is even featured in GEMS for this reason and as the author puts it:

 

Have you ever wondered what happens to the other 2 Deathbells after you harvest them, or 5 Nightshades, or a dozen of Mountain Flowers? Where do they go if you only harvest one, does the Dragonborn throw them on the floor and walks away? Do you want to get an appropriate amount after you harvest flora, but at the same time keep the game balanced? If yes, then this is the mod for you.

 

Harvest Overhaul is probably the only mod of its kind. This mod allows you to harvest a realistic amount of ingredients, while keeping the balance of Skyrim, and not conflicting with other mods. Every plant and flower (but not ingredients) has been tweaked to yield a realistic amount of ingredients, but with the element of luck. This mod also allows you to gain a surplus of ingredients if you harvest everything in sight, while in Vanilla harvesting everything on sight was a requirement if you wanted to level your Alchemy without visiting shops or training.

 

Harvest Overhaul also takes the size of the plant into consideration. For example, you can get up to 5 mountain flowers from a single bush, the minimum being 1. You can harvest up to 12 mountain flowers from a cluster of 3 bushes, with the minimum being 3. The yield most of the times is consistent, and generally around, or below half of maximum yield. Receiving 4-8 Mountain flowers is quite common.

 

So there you have it. The chance of amounts harvested is random and you normally only get half of the maximums. He wrote the mod to be realistic but still balanced. All of the concerns mentioned have been taken into consideration by the mod author. If you think the amounts of the harvests are too much, then that is just a matter of opinion and can be debated on forever. The fact remains that the mod provides what it claims to provide. Realism while remaining balanced to that realism.

[rootsrat]

I take your points, techangel - and again going to mention this is really the matter of personal preference and the way you play and perceive your game :) For me - this mod was making alchemy way too easy and I didn't like the fact that I always had backpack full of potions. This seemed like an exploit to me which I couldn't really control, as I have a habit of harvesting nearly everything I see (goes back to morrowind and oblivion :D), thus the vanilla system works better for me. I respect your points, as I've said, I have no survival skills (quite the opposite actually), I never hunted in my life, in fact I am a vegetarian for 18 years now, ha!

 

So, if you like it, use it - if not - don't, simple as that :)

 

However, I would still argue that it unbalances the game - make lots of potions easily, level you alch fast, sell potions to get rich fast, and level you speech while doing this. Seems a bit of an overkill to me, just for the sake of realism when harvesting flowers. Unless you're not going to exploit it by for example throwing the extra flowers and potions away, but whats the point...?

 

Anyway, to be honest also, this discussion seems a little bit overkill as well, just over this one mod. Maybe easier way would be to make a poll for it, I don't know, for Mod Testers only or something like that? Is the matter of including or not including this mod in STEP really worth such an extensive and in depth discussion?

[TechAngel85]

I take your points, techangel - and again going to mention this is really the matter of personal preference and the way you play and perceive your game :) For me - this mod was making alchemy way too easy and I didn't like the fact that I always had backpack full of potions. This seemed like an exploit to me which I couldn't really control, as I have a habit of harvesting nearly everything I see (goes back to morrowind and oblivion :D), thus the vanilla system works better for me. I respect your points, as I've said, I have no survival skills (quite the opposite actually), I never hunted in my life, in fact I am a vegetarian for 18 years now, ha!

 

So, if you like it, use it - if not - don't, simple as that :)

 

However, I would still argue that it unbalances the game - make lots of potions easily, level you alch fast, sell potions to get rich fast, and level you speech while doing this. Seems a bit of an overkill to me, just for the sake of realism when harvesting flowers. Unless you're not going to exploit it by for example throwing the extra flowers and potions away, but whats the point...?

 

Anyway, to be honest also, this discussion seems a little bit overkill as well, just over this one mod. Maybe easier way would be to make a poll for it, I don't know, for Mod Testers only or something like that? Is the matter of including or not including this mod in STEP really worth such an extensive and in depth discussion?

 

I will agree with you that the mod can be easily exploited, but I also don't think most people play the game to exploit it in such ways. Even if they do that is their choice to do so. When using the mod I play as I normally would. I do get more potions than in vanilla, but this also saves money from constantly having to pay for them in shops when I can simply create them. This is another point of why I think this mod fixes some things. Without this mod you'd have to harvest for hours to get these potions all the while getting into conflicts with bandits and animals which makes the hours of harvesting pointless because you'll be using those potions up while harvesting for more potions. It's completely a waste of time to try to level your alchemy in vanilla, IMO, because of this reason. There is no benefit... With this mod; however, you get the benefit back because you can make more potions at once; thus, making alchemy have a purpose in the game again.

 

The exploits you mention are entirely up to the player to exploit or not and the same goes for Ars and many other STEP mods that could be exploited in similar ways. The point I'm advocating is that this mod does fix an unrealistic aspect of the game and makes alchemy a useful aspect to utilize again.

 

This discussion is no different than many of our other discussions. This is how things are done around here as we're all a bit crazy and passionate. :P

[z929669]

z929669 Wrote

Sorry, but that is a flawed argument. 20 flowers on a plant does not translate into 20 potential flowers in your inventory. These individual flowers are representative of a quantity. they are not meant to be viewed literally as individual flowers. one flower, or anther, or piece of fish is representative of a 'realistic' amount.

 

Also, it is not the leveling that should be the concern, but the number of aliquots of the ingredient! With this mod, I can potentially make 3-10 potions  where I could previously only make one.

 

That is significantly unbalancing from the vanilla construct. It does not matter if we agree with the vanilla construct or not. the point is that it is not broken or 'wrong', so this mod is a gameplay-preference mod, and it belongs in a Pack for that reason.

 

I don't think that there is any debate other than the balance impact unless we change the STEP mandate, which we are not going to do. Additions like this open the door to many other like additions. Soon we would have a very different gameplay result than vanilla Skyrim ...

 

Can anyone demonstrate that this mod does not alter the balance of the game to benefit any player that chooses to collect even a single ingredient and use that to poison an arrow or create a potion?

 

EDIT: there can certainly be "zero" items harvested, depending on the skill of the harvester. it is about capturing *useful* ingredients. there is variation in plants and animals (and harvesters) that affect the amount of useful ingredients collected. Zero is totally realistic, and there are a wealth of moddeers and mods that would concur with that.

There's nothing flawed about it because you don't get 20 flowers from the plant but you do get more than you would in vanilla. No offense, but your explanation here is completely ridiculous. Anyone can look at the flower plants in-game and tell you there is more than one or two flowers on it which is the vanilla harvest amount. Since there's not just one flower on the plant it makes complete since that you'd be able to harvest 5-10 of the 20 or so that is present on the bush. My rose bush outside my house is all the proof you'll need. No all the buds/flowers will be good for potion making when they bloom; however, at least half would be. This would translate into 5-8 flowers...not 1-2. (see below for images)

 

Your zero harvesting is a little silly too. Any two year old could harvest any of these plants because if you can bend over and pick a flower off the ground you can harvest the plants. The animal harvesting only requires the skill of skinning a animal. If you always get a pelt from a wolf, then you're skilled enough to harvest any of the animal ingredients. Hunting is a big thing here in Oklahoma, so I knew how to skin and clean animal by the age of 8. The only source of food in Skyrim is what you kill for the citizens. Hunting in this time period is historically an extremely common skill for simple survival. I don't thing there any question that most citizens of Skyrim would know how to harvest animals from the age of when they're old enough to hunt.

 

Labeling perfectly reasonable points of view as 'ridiculous' and 'silly' is uncalled for I think. I'd apply that terminology to your own rather illogical reasoning

 

Did you not read what is highlighted in pink above?

 

These points are not really arguable. It is a fact that your inventory alchemical ingredients are a representation of reality and not reality. The point is that if you successfully harvest "snowberry", then you can make (one) potion with it. Period. It is irrelevant if that harvest is composed 20 snowberries or 1 snowberry ... use your imagination.

 

your other point about two-year-olds being able to pick a flower is also pretty weak, given that it has already been stated that harvested ingredients are symbolic of the skill and adeptness of the harvester. I can think of many reasons why a person might not get any really useable ingredients form any source.

 

The fact is that this mod IS unbalancing. This cannot be argued. only the degree to which it is unbalancing can be argued, and that is highly dependent upon player behavior.

 

This is a Pack mod, and I think that the 'evidence' is well established here on this thread that it does not belong in Core STEP (and yes, we have inconsistently applied mods to Core STEP that really belong in Packs, which will be 'fixed' according to an objective litmus test and NOT subjective opinion ). Polls apply to aesthetics ONLY, not mechanics (the STEP mandate precludes it).

 

More on the litmus test later, but in the meantime, we are going to be blocking any further unnecessary mechanics mods from Core STEP. This does NOT mean that they will not be used or recommended for STEP Packs.

 

As Ka3m0n has stated:

 

STEP is for making the game LOOK better (or differently), GEMS is for making the game PLAY better (or differently)

 

We will use Packs to cheat a little regarding that axiom ;)

[TechAngel85]

z929669 Wrote

Sorry, but that is a flawed argument. 20 flowers on a plant does not translate into 20 potential flowers in your inventory. These individual flowers are representative of a quantity. they are not meant to be viewed literally as individual flowers. one flower, or anther, or piece of fish is representative of a 'realistic' amount.

 

Also, it is not the leveling that should be the concern, but the number of aliquots of the ingredient! With this mod, I can potentially make 3-10 potions  where I could previously only make one.

 

That is significantly unbalancing from the vanilla construct. It does not matter if we agree with the vanilla construct or not. the point is that it is not broken or 'wrong', so this mod is a gameplay-preference mod, and it belongs in a Pack for that reason.

 

I don't think that there is any debate other than the balance impact unless we change the STEP mandate, which we are not going to do. Additions like this open the door to many other like additions. Soon we would have a very different gameplay result than vanilla Skyrim ...

 

Can anyone demonstrate that this mod does not alter the balance of the game to benefit any player that chooses to collect even a single ingredient and use that to poison an arrow or create a potion?

 

EDIT: there can certainly be "zero" items harvested, depending on the skill of the harvester. it is about capturing *useful* ingredients. there is variation in plants and animals (and harvesters) that affect the amount of useful ingredients collected. Zero is totally realistic, and there are a wealth of moddeers and mods that would concur with that.

There's nothing flawed about it because you don't get 20 flowers from the plant but you do get more than you would in vanilla. No offense, but your explanation here is completely ridiculous. Anyone can look at the flower plants in-game and tell you there is more than one or two flowers on it which is the vanilla harvest amount. Since there's not just one flower on the plant it makes complete since that you'd be able to harvest 5-10 of the 20 or so that is present on the bush. My rose bush outside my house is all the proof you'll need. No all the buds/flowers will be good for potion making when they bloom; however, at least half would be. This would translate into 5-8 flowers...not 1-2. (see below for images)

 

Your zero harvesting is a little silly too. Any two year old could harvest any of these plants because if you can bend over and pick a flower off the ground you can harvest the plants. The animal harvesting only requires the skill of skinning a animal. If you always get a pelt from a wolf, then you're skilled enough to harvest any of the animal ingredients. Hunting is a big thing here in Oklahoma, so I knew how to skin and clean animal by the age of 8. The only source of food in Skyrim is what you kill for the citizens. Hunting in this time period is historically an extremely common skill for simple survival. I don't thing there any question that most citizens of Skyrim would know how to harvest animals from the age of when they're old enough to hunt.

Labeling perfectly reasonable points of view as 'ridiculous' and 'silly' is uncalled for I think. I'd apply that terminology to your own rather illogical reasoning

 

Did you not read what is highlighted in pink above?

 

These points are not really arguable. It is a fact that your inventory alchemical ingredients are a representation of reality and not reality. The point is that if you successfully harvest "snowberry", then you can make (one) potion with it. Period. It is irrelevant if that harvest is composed 20 snowberries or 1 snowberry ... use your imagination.

 

your other point about two-year-olds being able to pick a flower is also pretty weak, given that it has already been stated that harvested ingredients are symbolic of the skill and adeptness of the harvester. I can think of many reasons why a person might not get any really useable ingredients form any source.

 

The fact is that this mod IS unbalancing. This cannot be argued. only the degree to which it is unbalancing can be argued, and that is highly dependent upon player behavior.

 

This is a Pack mod, and I think that the 'evidence' is well established here on this thread that it does not belong in Core STEP (and yes, we have inconsistently applied mods to Core STEP that really belong in Packs, which will be 'fixed' according to an objective litmus test and NOT subjective opinion ). Polls apply to aesthetics ONLY, not mechanics (the STEP mandate precludes it).

 

More on the litmus test later, but in the meantime, we are going to be blocking any further unnecessary mechanics mods from Core STEP. This does NOT mean that they will not be used or recommended for STEP Packs.

 

As Ka3m0n has stated:

 

STEP is for making the game LOOK better (or differently), GEMS is for making the game PLAY better (or differently)

 

We will use Packs to cheat a little regarding that axiom ;)

 

I meant no disrespect in my comments. I can also think of many reasons players would receive a 0 harvest; however, none that actually apply to the game mechanics. The ingredients don't have "grades" in Skyrim so the "rotten" argument doesn't apply because even if it was rotten you'd still be able to harvest it. The "damaged" harvest-able items follows this same reasoning. Even if the item is damaged (eye), it would still be harvest-able (just maybe not usable in a potion but probably still sell-able). These are the things that this "fixes" granted since there aren't "grades" all items will be usable for potions. There is also no harvest "skill level" included in the game so that argument makes no sense to me either. For either of these to make sense the mod would have to make items "gradable" and add a harvest skill to the leveling system. Until the mod does include these, they do not exist in the game mechanics so I don't see the validity of these points when they are nonexistent in the first place. We're getting into the realm of imagination and assuming without proof. I'm debating within what the game already includes. I can use my imagination, but you know I'm all for realism and getting 1 snowberry off an entire bush composed of 20+ berries in which the berries "disappear" after the harvest is completely unrealistic...even if it's just to keep alchemy balanced.

Gameplay & sound mods that improve the consistency and the perceived intent of vanilla Skyrim

View my argument above in reply to Rootsrat, above improving on vanilla. Alchemy is fairly useless to level in vanilla Skyrim, IMO for the reasons I stated in that reply.

 

With all this said, it looks like I've lost this battle. :><: oh well...i did my best. src="%7B___base_url___%7D/uploads/emoticons/default_teehee.gif" alt=":teehee:">

 

Edit: Taking testing status off of this mod until we start compiling packs.

[z929669]

Fair enough. Good battle. I may actually use this mod in the future as it evolves. In fact, I am antsy for an overhaul pack or two that alchemical gameplay should be a part of. We will be opening up the Pack conversations soon.

[TechAngel85]

Expect the authors reply to this thread soon. He also said he's planning on reducing the amounts of items harvested (or provide an optional version for this).

 

Rpsgc: Would it be possible for you to upload a version of the mod that adds a lower number of ingredients? Say half of the current maximum values?

 

@rpsgc

I have that on my list of things to do with this mod. Others have requested it as well.

 

 

Techangel85: Could you chime in on our very in-depth debate about your mod over at STEP? The author's opinions and reasonings are always well respected and I'd like to hear from you and your view points. Thanks!

 

@TechAngel85

Thanks for bringing that to my attention. I'll post something soon.

 

[Kelmych]

By the way, this mod completely overwrites the changes from the STEP mod Clams Drop Pearls if ClamsDropPearls is loaded before the Harvest Overhaul mod. This is the order that BOSS currently uses. Either the order of these should be reversed, since the Clams mod affects only three records, or a patch could be written that accommodates both sets of changes.

[WilliamImm]

By the way' date=' this mod completely overwrites the changes from the STEP mod Clams Drop Pearls if ClamsDropPearls is loaded before the Harvest Overhaul mod. This is the order that BOSS currently uses. Either the order of these should be reversed, since the Clams mod affects only three records, or a patch could be written that accommodates both sets of changes.[/quote']

A patch, you say? I can make one pretty shortly, merging both records.

[Besidilo]

I have nothing interesting to contribute.