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Stealth Skills Rebalanced (by kryptopyr)

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#1 kryptopyr

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Posted 02 March 2013 - 03:31 PM

Discussion thread:
Stealth Skills Rebalanced by kryptopyr
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This mod makes changes to the Sneak, Lockpicking, and Pickpocket skills in an attempt to better balance these skills with the rest of the skills in the game while trying not to deviate too far from the way in which those skills are handled by the vanilla game.  The mod also fixes a few rather annoying bugs (like the 'fortify pickpocket' effect decreasing your pickpocket chances and the Ataxia disease increasing your pickpocket chances).

I think it would be a good candidate for any gameplay packs as it makes some much needed changes to three skills which were pretty unbalanced in the vanilla game.  I've tried to design the mod so that it would enhance the game for both stealth-oriented and non-stealth oriented characters.
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#2 Lauren

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 10:43 AM

I was looking at using SPERG, but I'll have to go through and compare everything... I want something that balances everything but I do like the direction of your full mod (not just the one module to patch with SPERG).

Also:
MY OTHER MODS
Traps Make Noise
Thieves Guild Requirements
Better Stealth AI for Followers
Thieves Guild Followers
Nightingale Hall & Karliah as Follower
Brynjolf & Vex As Followers
Shadowmarks for Player Homes


...I award you all the internet cats.
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#3 Kelmych

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 05:33 PM

I currently use the Sneak part of the mod; I think this mod would be a useful part of a STEP pack. I'm using Locks Overhaul in STEP but I'm a little disappointed that the change it makes to ordinary lockpicking seems only to be that it adds a minimum skill level for each lock difficulty level (novice, apprentice, ...) below which picking is impossible. This is reminiscent of the very simplistic lockpicking in the earliest TES games. Stealth Skills Rebalanced says it changes the actual difficulty of locks which is closer to what I was originally expecting with the ordinary lockpicking component of Locks Overhaul. The two mods thus seem complementary as they don't have the overlap I thought they would have; I plan on using Lockpicking from Stealth Skills Rebalanced.
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#4 kryptopyr

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Posted 03 March 2013 - 06:47 PM

Yes, Lock Overhaul should work fine alongside Stealth Skills Rebalanced. Quad2Core, the author of Lock Overhaul, did respond to a comment concerning compatibility between the two mods. His response:

I just took a look into the mod and it should work just fine. :)
The only problem that could happen are insanly high or low skill improvements, if you are use the autopick function.


So this aspect may need to be tested in-game to determine whether or not the skill improvement seems off. I don't have access to the scripts for Lock Overhaul so I can't be certain, but since Stealth Skills Rebalanced doesn't change the skill advancement you get for picking locks, I'm not sure I see what would create this issue.
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#5 kryptopyr

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 07:43 AM

I have a question for anyone here who might be using this mod.  How far do I extend the "Camouflage" perk?  The perk is both described and technically applied as a modifier to only the visual aspect of sneaking.  So if you're wearing dark clothing or armor in a dark environment, then it is more difficult for NPCs to see you. 

 

However, the way the perk is currently set up, there are no heavy armor items that get this effect.  Should Ebony and Deadric (and maybe Heavy Falmer from Dawnguard) be added?  None of these are good items to wear while sneaking because they weigh a lot and therefore make a lot of noise, but they are dark, so should you get a bit of a visual buff from wearing them if you have the Camouflage perk?


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#6 CJ2311

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 07:49 AM

Daedric armor has an obnoxious red glow, if anything that would lower the sneaking potential of the wearer since enemies should be able to see it in the dark. Ebony and heavy Falmer make sense though, and I suppose that if you're using muffle, you can make them a bit stealthier.
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#7 kryptopyr

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 09:59 AM

Thanks for the feedback!  Does the red on Daedric gear actually glow in game?  It's never seemed very apparent to me, but then I've very rarely played with Daedric gear.


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#8 CJ2311

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 10:46 AM

Neither do I, but when I last fought Mehrune's daedra (using RLO at the time), the red was visible in the dark, kinda subtle but it did give their position away nonetheless, especially the back.
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#9 statmonster

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 12:03 PM

I think I use a mod that makes Daedric glow, but it's Neenah a while since I used that armor. I agree with making the others camouflage, maybe Daedric too as it is mystical after all... What I would really like to see is that using a dark cape or cloak allows one to use the camouflage perk, even if the items underneath would not qualify. The ranger type skulking around wrapped in a dark cloak who then reveals himself when he removes (or opens) his cloak... A list of which items are included by default would be very nice - though I almost always use the ring to give the perk to armors I think should have it. How much does having the perk really help? BTW, my preference with this perk is that you should be pretty liberal with allowing it. If someone spent a perk on it then anything not obviously shiny should probably get it. (Or at least that's how I see it.) Should naked Dark Elves (and Red Guards or Orcs) get it? :)
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#10 kryptopyr

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 02:10 PM

I'd love to find a way to take into account different terrain, so for example, in snowy areas you could camouflage yourself in white/light gray items during the day, but I haven't come up with a reliable way to detect these differences.

 

The perk pretty much works exactly like a stealth version of the Well Fitted or Matching Set perks: if you have 4 items equipped with the appropriate keyword, then the bonus gets applied.  I feel that it makes quite a bit of difference, but it might also depend on lighting mods and just how dark your shadows are in game.  If you're playing with super dark interiors and/or nights, then the bonus might not be that noticeable, and sound is probably going to be your biggest stealth factor in these situations. 

 

 

The cloak is a good idea.  I can update the CCO versions of Cloaks and WIC to include the keyword on some of the darker cloaks from those mods.  I'll have to see if I can rework it a bit to look more specifically at which items contain the keywords.  You shouldn't be able to get away with wearing a bright, shiny helmet along with a dark cloak, cuirass, boots, and gauntlets.  The cloak should basically just replace the body/cuirass item.

 

I've actually considered applying it to naked dark-skinned races, but the problem is that there's quite a bit of flexibility in skin tone even within those races, then with mods adding increased options on top of that... I just felt that it was a bit too difficult to accurately predict just how dark the character's skin was.  Plus, there's that white loin cloth... :-P

 

I am also adding in a non-stealthy "bright" keyword to some of the armors, and plan to add an automatic nerf to stealth abilities based on wearing items with this keyword.  There aren't very many of them in vanilla, but I got the idea while I was evaluating which of the armors in Immersive Armors V7 to apply the "dark" camouflage keyword too.  I think there were 2 or 3 sets that were just so ostentatious that I felt anyone trying to sneak in them ought to be penalized.


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#11 redirishlord

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 02:25 PM

I enjoy your mod with ACE (and your provided patch) and Enchanting Awakened (minus the ACE enchanting module) with some Deadly Combat gravy & ASIS (minus the increased spawns) over top.

The attention you show the Stealth skills is much needed and appreciated (finally needing to advance the Stealth skills for their own perks instead of just farming them for Combat/Magic perks).

As for Camouflage, IMHO wouldn't allow Heavy Armors to benefit (just doesn't seem stealthy, muffled or no, its a Stealth skill thing - Thieves are Light). I think the racial bonuses are already baked-in/balanced so bonus by skin tone doesn't seem quite right. Just my 2 septims worth.


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#12 Noobsayer

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Posted 07 April 2014 - 05:08 PM

Yeah, I think races is a bad idea. My dunmer's skin is artificially pale thanks to Racemenu, wouldn't be fair or immersive imo. I do think dark  heavy armor should get the camouflage perk, because it IS harder to see in the dark ... and then just let the heavy armor drawbacks to stealth be calculated as well against it.

 

I'd love to see wielding spells lower your sneak ability, particularly bright ones like fire.


Edited by Noobsayer, 07 April 2014 - 05:20 PM.

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#13 kryptopyr

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 08:01 AM

Thanks for the suggestions!  This is the list of items that I currently have qualifying for the Camouflage perk.  The DLC items and vanilla heavy armors aren't included in the current release of SSR, but will have the necessary keyword added to them in the next update to Weapons & Armor Fixes.


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#14 Crimson13

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 06:06 PM

I'd like to ask about the Camouflage perk kryptopyr, you put down 'have 4 items equipped with the appropriate keyword, then the bonus gets applied'. Does the equipment have to match in order to have the bonus, like vampire boots/gloves/armor together or can you mix and match as long as the keyword matches the armor?


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#15 kryptopyr

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 08:04 PM

You can mix and match them.  So, for example, you could wear vampire armor and gloves with the Thieves Guild hood and the Dark Brotherhood Shrouded Boots.


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