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Stealth Skills Rebalanced (by kryptopyr)

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#31 Shadriss

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Posted 03 February 2016 - 10:39 PM

Oh they make sense enough, it just forces me to give up a mod that I really don't want to. I understand the idea behind the perk system, but I really don't care for it. To me, the perks should be natural extensions of me building the skill - not something I have to spend points on in some fashion. If I spend the time needed to build a skill, that, to me, is the investment needed to get the associated bonus. Unfortunately, the mods that allow for this (Automatic Perks, for example, though not the one I use...) can't cope with changes to the perk trees structure.

 

I'm left in a position where I either have to not use mods like this, which make sense, or give up something that I personally consider a fix. Not a fun place to be.


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#32 Greg

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 02:31 PM

Marked for Testing.

#33 Shadriss

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Posted 10 February 2016 - 10:29 AM

OK, been playing this for a week or so now, and WOW does it change things. Sneaking is a lot harder, lockpicking is beyond hard, and I have yet to manage to steal from anyone, mostly because sneaking is a lot harder.

 

Up check!


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#34 Tobi

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Posted 10 February 2016 - 02:14 PM

OK, been playing this for a week or so now, and WOW does it change things. Sneaking is a lot harder, lockpicking is beyond hard, and I have yet to manage to steal from anyone, mostly because sneaking is a lot harder.

 

Up check!

How exactly is it harder? Do you just get detected more easily or is there more to it?


Edited by Tobi, 10 February 2016 - 02:14 PM.

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#35 Greg

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Posted 10 February 2016 - 06:16 PM

It's a combination of things that make the player easier to detect. A player clanking around in metal armor is dead easy to detect so this places an emphasis on using light armor. NPCs react more naturally given the level of light in the area. A player walking around in broad daylight is dead easy to detect and is more difficult to detect when it's dark. You definitely need to stay away from light areas. Bright armor is easier to detect than dark armor so you'll want to avoid Elven armor. Stealth armor (such as the light armor used by the Dark Brotherhood and Nightingales ) provides some additional bonsues to make it more difficult to detect.

 

When NPCs detect movement or sound nearby, they become much more alert to sounds and movement, and they actively search longer and farther out than in the vanilla game. Just walking along I see the eyeball pop open a lot more often than in the vanilla game, and a lot of the time I don't know what is seeing me.

 

The vanilla Stealth perk ranks are 20%, 25%, 30%, 35%, and 40% whereas it's 10%, 20%, 30%, 40%, and 50% with this mod so the first rank is significantly easier to detect and the second rank is slightly easier to detect. Muffled Movement makes your armor 50% quieter whereas this is 25% quieter for rank 1 and 50% quieter for rank 2 in this mod. The vanilla Silence perk makes it so running no longer affects detection. This is replaced with Shadow's Embrace that decreases the relative effect light has on detection.

 

I remember in the vanilla game with a high sneak level being able to get face-to-face with an NPC (like a Draugr) without being detected and even being bumped into by Draugr without being detected. You won't do that with this mod.

 

@Shadriss You may get a kick out of this. I had the fight of my life against a Dark Brotherhood assassin at level 10 and finally managed to kick his butt after running with my tail between my legs more times than I care to count. I swiped his armor and went on my way without thinking anything about it. I then entered a dungeon and tried picking a novice lock on a chest. I mean it's a novice lock so it isn't that bloody difficult. After breaking five or six lockpicks in frustration, I looked in the perk tree and saw Lockpicking -20. NEGATIVE 20. I did a double take and then hit the active effects page to see what the goofy goof is going on where I see this: "Wearing Gauntlets: -40 Lockpicking". Doh!



#36 Tobi

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Posted 10 February 2016 - 06:19 PM

It's a combination of things that make the player easier to detect. A player clanking around in metal armor is dead easy to detect so this places an emphasis on using light armor. NPCs react more naturally given the level of light in the area. A player walking around in broad daylight is dead easy to detect and is more difficult to detect when it's dark. You definitely need to stay away from light areas. Bright armor is easier to detect than dark armor so you'll want to avoid Elven armor. Stealth armor (such as the light armor used by the Dark Brotherhood and Nightingales ) provides some additional bonsues to make it more difficult to detect.

 

When NPCs detect movement or sound nearby, they become much more alert to sounds and movement, and they actively search longer and farther out than in the vanilla game. Just walking along I see the eyeball pop open a lot more often than in the vanilla game, and a lot of the time I don't know what is seeing me.

 

The vanilla Stealth perk ranks are 20%, 25%, 30%, 35%, and 40% whereas it's 10%, 20%, 30%, 40%, and 50% with this mod so the first rank is significantly easier to detect and the second rank is slightly easier to detect. Muffled Movement makes your armor 50% quieter whereas this is 25% quieter for rank 1 and 50% quieter for rank 2 in this mod. The vanilla Silence perk makes it so running no longer affects detection. This is replaced with Shadow's Embrace that decreases the relative effect light has on detection.

 

I remember in the vanilla game with a high sneak level being able to get face-to-face with an NPC (like a Draugr) without being detected and even being bumped into by Draugr without being detected. You won't do that with this mod.

Okay wow that sounds a lot better.

 

Count me!


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#37 Shadriss

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Posted 10 February 2016 - 07:22 PM

"A Bunch of Stuff"

Everything he just said there. Even long range detection is easier for the NPCs. I was a good long ways off, trying to pick off a few bandits at Halted Stream, missed my first shot, settled in to wait the (much longer) time needed for them to reset, and somehow, one spotted me. I guess that guy had magika-improved eyeballs or something.

 

@Greg - You'd think there'd be a minimum skill level of 1 to keep that kind of thing from happening, wouldn't you? :)


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#38 Teabag86

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Posted 10 February 2016 - 11:42 PM

OK, been playing this for a week or so now, and WOW does it change things. Sneaking is a lot harder, lockpicking is beyond hard, and I have yet to manage to steal from anyone, mostly because sneaking is a lot harder.

I've been playing with SSR forever and wouldn't play without it. The upside to the difficult start is that once you drop in a few perk points your character will become MUCH more adept at those skills. There is a really good arc in improving the character and I feel like I have earned the skill increases. Let's face it in vanilla with no lockpick skill or perks I can pick a master lock in under a minute - which is totally wrong. With SSR active if I haven't added a lockpicking perk I don't even attempt lockpicking unless I am desperate. However investing one perk point will allow me to pick Adept locks, albeit with a challenge. On the plus side lockpicks are much stronger and you get a lot more chances to pick the lock. This is how it should be in my opinion.

 

The same applies to Stealth. If I want to get better at it I need to practice the skill and learn a few perks. Once I've done that I can remain undetected if the conditions are right; correct armor, stay in shadows, move slowly, etc. The whole experience with SSR feels much more natural.


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#39 TechAngel85

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Posted 15 February 2016 - 12:35 PM

I've read over the mod page and agree with all the changes it is making, besides the "All Access" perk since this perk can potentially break quests. No matter how realistic a feature can be, if it's going to break something, it probably shouldn't be added. This is the only reason I wouldn't want to install the Full Version of the mod. I can see the troubleshooting section of the forum filling up with issues of quests breaking already. The only saving grace is that this is basically a master level perk so by the time the user is able to get it, they should be knowledgeable enough of when not to use it.

 

I will be installing the full version of this to test the changes it makes. On my last game, I was only a level 22 character with a Sneak skill level of 60+. That is a little ridiculous so this mod falls in line with fixing the sneak aspect of the game.

 

NARC should not be dropped even if there is some overlap. NARC is Core, this mod would be Extended.



#40 kryptopyr

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Posted 15 February 2016 - 02:04 PM

*
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When I released SSR with the All Access perk, I expected that I would get some complaints about broken quests, even with the warnings I've provided in the description (as we know, most users don't bother with mod descriptions).  Surprisingly, though, I've never received a single bug report or comment about SSR causing any broken quests.  I've even personally tried to use the All Access perk to break a number of quests, and I've never managed to do it.  Of course, I'm not trying to argue that it isn't possible; I still see this as a risk when using All Access, since the game is not designed around the player having this ability.  However, I don't think you'd see a sudden flood of issues in the forums here, since I've never seen anything like that on the mod page.

 

If STEP wanted to recommend the Full Version, there's actually an alternative to the All Access ability already built into the mod.  You can either recommend the following changes or include them in the STEP extended patch: 

in the console enter: set AllAccessOff to 1
This will remove the All Access option and convert the All Access perk into a once-a-day power that will allow you to automatically open any Master lock (or lower). However, the perk name and description will remain the same.

 

If STEP decides to include SSR and wants to use the Full Version minus the All Access perk, I could also put together a simple patch that would make the same change mentioned above (it's just a quick change to a global value), as well as editing the perk description to match this alternative version.


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#41 TechAngel85

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Posted 15 February 2016 - 05:27 PM

Well, I was just taking that from the warning in your description so if you've not received any reports on the All Access perk breaking anything, then that is golden. I really like the changes this mod makes (on paper since I haven't played with it yet). Sneaking and stealth is one of my main strategies in playing do this should work nicely.

#42 Kelmych

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Posted 15 February 2016 - 06:35 PM

As it is for my character

#43 Teabag86

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Posted 15 February 2016 - 06:37 PM

Well, I was just taking that from the warning in your description so if you've not received any reports on the All Access perk breaking anything, then that is golden. I really like the changes this mod makes (on paper since I haven't played with it yet). Sneaking and stealth is one of my main strategies in playing do this should work nicely.

It is actually very difficult to break quests with All Access. I actually tried to do it just for fun. Most of the major quest lines have inbuilt mechanisms to handle this. Mainly the blocking off of tunnels once you enter the ruin, for example Korvanjund for the Civil War and Dustman's Cairn for the Companions. Labyrinthian requires the Torc for entry.

 

So why have All Access if it is limited? I was able to access all the player homes which was very cool. Of course they couldn't be upgraded because I didn't own them but for a master thief it was great knowing that I could break into them whenever I pleased. Plus I could enter Proudspire to complete the Stones of Barenziah without having to become Thane.


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#44 Bandy

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Posted 26 February 2016 - 07:26 AM

I can recommend SSR as a great mod for addressing skill and perk imbalances in vanilla.  It is true, one can play vanilla, and STEP, and improve stealth skills way too easily without taking any perks, it just isn't right...  While just IMHO (and understand STEP-core mandate), the basic version of SSR improves things but the Full version is the better choice for immersive gameplay though certainly not 'hard-core' in any way.

 

I haven't used SSR in my recent STEP-x install yet (new here) but was hoping to first find whether anyone has stumbled on incompatibilities/conflicts or other install difficulties with this mod and STEP-core or -x.  I doubt there is, but don't like being the one to find these things out...

 

RE: All Access  it appears there is little to worry about, and given players have access to console whenever they want anyways, it is all about their personal restraint as to how they use it.


Edited by Bandy, 26 February 2016 - 07:48 AM.

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#45 elenhil

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Posted 26 February 2016 - 08:54 AM

I tried SSR a couple of years ago, but the only thing that stood out for me was the overavailability of its specially enchanted gloves. I guess it's rather subjective. Anyway, I swapped it for another SSR (Skyrim Skills Redesigned), whose Thieving Redesigned module, while going far beyond Vanilla (it is, after all, merging Lockpicking and Pickpocketing into a dingle skill tree), seems to engender a more interesting style of gameplay. Its Traceless perk (Not receiving a bounty for a day will clear nonviolent crimes) cured me of my scavescumming addiction, and its unique twist to Deadly Aim (having a larger sneak critical when shooting a target in the back) humoured the strategy gamer inside me.

 

The rest of fine-tweaking (making sweet point size a whole 10% of Vanilla settings, etc) was done by SkyTweak.


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