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#16 Aiyen

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 01:40 PM

As I have understood it then it has more to do with how those programs measure the FPS. You can still get the card to render more frames, but anything above 30 is just not used and make no difference for the game, since its limited in a way that makes the physics engine behave. I know that for certain other titles, then if you have a monitor with a high enough refresh rate, and low latency then you would be able to see a difference when having fast moving scenes between 60FPS and 120. However I have not found anything that states that this is the case in skyrim. If someone has a better technical description then I am all ears... since I have never really been satisfied with what I could dig up myself. Also in my own tests... I really cannot feel any difference between 30 and 50 FPS in terms of playing the game. Only difference I ever noticed was input lag issues, which where always traceable to either an ini change, or some mod or ENB feature. However most of this have nothing to do with AA techniques per se, other then the fact that AA can add substantial input lag as well as FPS drop, hence you can still have higher FPS but there will be input lag because of the techniques used. However its not because of a low FPS... You can have 37 FPS with no input lag with some settings, but input lag with others.

#17 DoYouEvenModBro

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 01:45 PM

As I have understood it then it has more to do with how those programs measure the FPS. You can still get the card to render more frames, but anything above 30 is just not used and make no difference for the game, since its limited in a way that makes the physics engine behave.
I know that for certain other titles, then if you have a monitor with a high enough refresh rate, and low latency then you would be able to see a difference when having fast moving scenes between 60FPS and 120. However I have not found anything that states that this is the case in skyrim.

If someone has a better technical description then I am all ears... since I have never really been satisfied with what I could dig up myself.

Also in my own tests... I really cannot feel any difference between 30 and 50 FPS in terms of playing the game. Only difference I ever noticed was input lag issues, which where always traceable to either an ini change, or some mod or ENB feature.

However most of this have nothing to do with AA techniques per se, other then the fact that AA can add substantial input lag as well as FPS drop, hence you can still have higher FPS but there will be input lag because of the techniques used. However its not because of a low FPS...
You can have 37 FPS with no input lag with some settings, but input lag with others.

Yea, I mean as you or someone else above stated, it's not like Skyrim is a real first person shooter where a 60 framerate matters. I think as long as Skyrim never dips below 30, it should feel pretty smooth. It runs fine with my 7970. VRAM sometimes maxes out all 3 GB but usually I just get a little bit of stutter. 
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#18 JudgmentJay

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 01:56 PM

Skyrim is capped at 60 FPS by default. Not 30. Not sure where you got that piece of misinformation.
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#19 Garfink

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 02:55 PM

Skyrim's FPS is not capped, unless you turn on a FPS capper or vsync. I can assure you that it can go beyond 60 FPS (even if the Havoc engine doesn't like it)!!! and with ENB physics fix, the game works over 60 FPS quite well, you may still get the odd gravity issue, but its nothing.
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#20 JudgmentJay

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 03:02 PM

[quote name=''Garfink' pid='49838' dateline='1378929338']Skyrim's FPS is not capped' date=' unless you turn on a FPS capper or vsync. I can assure you that it can go beyond 60 FPS (even if the Havoc engine doesn't like it)!!! and with ENB physics fix, the game works over 60 FPS quite well, you may still get the odd gravity issue, but its nothing.[/quote']

That is correct, but vsync is enabled by default. So unless you tinker with .ini settings to disable vsync, Skyrim's FPS is, for all intents and purposes, capped at 60 (or whatever your monitor's refresh rate is).
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#21 johnnyboy88

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 03:15 PM

The following link should help dispell a lot of myths and sort out most confusion:
(Including the "minimum" fps and "maxium what the human eye can see" myths)
https://www.tweakgui...Graphics_1.html

Refresh rates do NOT affect FPS. They are two separate and distinct things.

FPS = Frames per Second = How many distinct individiual images or frames a GPU outputs, per second

Refresh Rate = Number of times a screen is capable of DISPLAYING or redrawing, per second
(FYI, even if your monitor is capable of 120Hz refresh, and a lot of LCDs are, WindowsOS or your Hardware connection type, may be capping it at 60Hz)

Even if you have a static 2D image your monitor is still refreshing or redrawing 60 or 120 or whatever times every second.

So, if your fps is less than your refresh rate, say 19fps, those 19 frames are just getting redrawn several times.

And if your fps is higher than your refresh rate say 200fps, and your monitor is 60Hz refresh rate, then you're only displaying 60 images per second, because your monitor can't refresh/redraw/change it's crystal state fast enough to display it.

And this is where Vsync comes into play.
Because if your graphics card is outputing 200fps and your monitor can only display 60 you get what's called screen tearing. Vsync is what prevents the Tearing.

Vsync caps the maximum number of frames to the moniters refresh rate, so enabling Vsync on a 120Hz moniter would cap FPS at 120 FPS instead of the normal 60.

Now, let's step backward a second. If your refresh rate is 60Hz and your fps is anything lower than that, and you have Vsync enabled; It is possible that Vsync can reduce your framerate significantly. Because Vysnc slaves your grahics card to your monitor.

Your graphics card only sends frames from the framebuffer when the monitor tells it to. Which is between each individual refresh. If your graphics card misses completing a frame it has to wait until the next reshresh to send it. So it sits idle and wait to send the next frame. This results in half the framerate whenever you fall below the refresh rate.

So as long as your fps is higher than your monitors refresh Vsync will not reduce framerate. But if your fps is lower than your refresh rate Vysnc can reduce your framerate further.

Nvidia has an Adaptive Vsync that can be enabled to automatically disable Vysnc if your fps falls below your monitors refresh rate. It will only be enable if your fps exceeds your refresh.

Nvidia also has a Smooth Vsync option for SLI and when fps is below your monitors refresh rate. It is suppose to help with micro stutters. It locks in the sustainable framerate of your game and only increases it if the performance move is sustainable above the refresh of your monitor. It does lower average framerate but "smoothes" it out.

This is where Triple Buffering comes into play.
Tripple Buffering will add an extra frame buffer so your graphics card doesn't have to wait for the next refresh to keep working. It will start to fill the 3rd frame buffer with an image and then once the monitor refreshes and syncs up with the graphics card, it will rotate the framebuffers sending the 1st one to display, the 2nd to the 1st, and the 3rd to the 2nd.

The problem with adding an extra framebuffer is that it requires additional VRAM. So if you're using HighRes textures, Anisotropic Filtering, and AntiAliasing; you may have increased stuttering or hitching as your textures are swapped out.
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#22 DoYouEvenModBro

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 03:19 PM

The following link should help dispell a lot of myths and sort out most confusion:
https://www.tweakgui...Graphics_1.html

Refresh rates do NOT affect FPS. They are two separate and distinct things.

FPS = Frames per Second = How many distinct individiual images or frames a GPU outputs, per second

Refresh Rate = Number of times a screen is capable of DISPLAYING or redrawing, per second
(FYI, even if your monitor is capable of 120Hz refresh, and a lot of LCDs are, WindowsOS or your Hardware connection type, may be capping it at 60Hz)

Even if you have a static 2D image your monitor is still refreshing or redrawing 60 or 120 or whatever times every second.

So, if your fps is less than your refresh rate, say 19fps, those 19 frames are just getting redrawn several times.

And if your fps is higher than your refresh rate say 200fps, and your monitor is 60Hz refresh rate, then your only displaying 60 images per second, because your monitor can't refresh/redraw/change it's crystal state fast enough to display it.

And this is where Vsync comes into play.
Because if your graphics card is outputing 200fps and your monitor can only display 60 you get what's called screen tearing. Vsync is what prevents the Tearing.

Vsync caps the maximum number of frames to the moniters refresh rate, so enabling Vsync on a 120Hz moniter would cap FPS at 120 FPS instead of the normal 60.

Now, let's step backward a second. If your refresh rate is 60Hz and your fps is anything lower than that, and you have Vsync enabled; It is possiblt that Vsync can reduce your framerate significantly. Because Vysnc slaves your grahics card to your monitor.

Your graphics card only sends frames from the framebuffer when the monitor tells it to. Which is between each individual refresh. If your graphics card misses completing a frame it has to wait until the next reshresh to send it. So it sits idle and wait to send the next frame. This results in half the framerate whenever you fall below the refresh rate.

So as long as your fps is higher than your monitors refresh Vsync will not reduce framerate. But if your fps is lower than your refresh rate Vysnc can reduce your framerate further.

Nvidia has an Adaptive Vsync that can be enabled to automatically disable Vysnc if your fps falls below your monitors refresh rate. It will only be enable if your fps exceeds your refresh.

This is where Triple Buffering comes into play.
Tripple Buffering will add an extra frame buffer so your graphics card doesn't have to wait for the next refresh to keep working it will start to fill the 3rd frame buffer with an image and then once the monitor refreshes and syncs up with the graphics card it rotate the framebuffers sending the 1st one to display the 2nd to the 1st and the 3rd to the second.

The problem is adding an extra framebuffer requires additional VRAM. So if you're using HighRes textures, Anisotropic Filtering, and AntiAliasing; you may have increased stuttering or hitching as your textures are swapped out.

Is that why Skyrim framerates are so terrible and inconsistent? Because with a fully modded skyrim (2k outdoor textures, etc etc), you will most likely be getting under 60 fps but since vsync in skyrim is FORCED on, there's nothing you can do about it except enable triple buffering? Also, at least for AMD, you can only force triple buffering for OpenGL Games. i believe Skyrim is Direct3d. 
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#23 johnnyboy88

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 04:01 PM

Well, it can certainly be part of it. You can turn Vsync off in Skyrimprefs.ini [Display] // 0 = off // 1 = on // 2 = reduced fps cap iPresentInterval=0 I recommend turning it off in Skyrimprefs and use your drivers to control your vsync settings and if you want an fps limiter as well, Nvidia control panel has one, enb includes it, as well as other tools like msi afterburner. FYI, if you use enb. It also has a Vsync setting so check that out as well. If you're using your driver control panel all software options have to be disabled. I'm not real familiar with ATI so I'm not sure how tripple buffering would work for that. But I can do a little research unless someone else knows.
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#24 Aiyen

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 04:01 PM

Skyrim is capped at 60 FPS by default. Not 30. Not sure where you got that piece of misinformation.

I remember reading it way back when I started getting into skyrim in detail. There was a test where there was a cap set from 30 and up, and the conclusion was that there was no noticeable difference in the flow of the game. I know that calling it vsync is wrong technically.. I did remember to say "vysync" since I did not really know what else to call it. I guess its just a bad term. 
The general gist of it was that it was my understanding that the game had a sort of limiter included that acted both as normal Vsync, and as a limiter that made the physics engine behave. 
If that is not the case I stand corrected! :) 

Skyrim's FPS is not capped, unless you turn on a FPS capper or vsync. I can assure you that it can go beyond 60 FPS (even if the Havoc engine doesn't like it)!!! and with ENB physics fix, the game works over 60 FPS quite well, you may still get the odd gravity issue, but its nothing.


I am quite aware, I have had my share of fun by going nuts with flying mammoths (Which can happen even at 20 FPS due to weird gravity physics and mudcraps!).  As for calling it nothing yeah.. it happens rarely, and its always fun when it does! I can live with glitches like that! :) 


Also thank you johnnyboy88 for the link and clarification! If you happen to have some input on ... .input lag I would be happy! In general the concept of having really sluggish movements etc. even though the FPS is 30+.  

#25 johnnyboy88

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 04:18 PM

Input Lag
Unlike a movie, you actually control the camera in a game. The lower your FPS the more 'laggy' your on-screen interactions will feel. This also adds to the perception of certain framerates being inadequate.

The most common fix is to raise your fps. Control lag is simply what happens when your graphics card struggles to keep up and the resulting frames go slightly out of sync with input commands.

There is no precise or magic fps level. 23fps make look terrible but 24fps may look smooth. The fact is, everyone is going to perceive things differently. If it looks and feels smooth to you, then you're getting enough. But someone else may not agree.

As for other possible "fixes"? You'll have to play with your vsync and tripple buffering settings to see what is smooth for you. And if various combinations of those don't work. You'll have to reduce the load on your graphics card by reducing your graphics mods to increase your fps.

Finally. Skyrim has a setting for mouse acceleration. Try disabling that inside Skyrimprefs.ini
[CONTROLS]
bMouseAcceleration=0

Other options that control input:
[Interface]
fMouseCursorSpeed=1.0000

[Controls]
fMouseHeadingSensitivity=0.0125

also try turning off the gamepad if you're not using one.
[MAIN]
bGamepadEnable=0

EDIT:
Nvidia has an option called Maximum Pre-Rendered Frames that can possibly help with mouse lag. Try a setting of 1
https://www.tweakgui.../NVFORCE_6.html

Maximum Pre-Rendered Frames:If available, this option - previously known as 'Max Frames to Render Ahead' - controls the number of frames the CPU prepares in advanced of being rendered by the GPU. The default value is 3 - higher values tend to result in smoother but more laggy gameplay, while lower values can help reduce mouse and keyboard lag. However extremely low values such as 0 may hurt performance, so I recommend this option be kept at its default of 3 globally, and only adjusted downwards in specific game profiles. Remember, in most cases mouse lag is due to low framerates, so adjusting this option is not an automatic cure to lag issues, nor should it be the first thing you try. Finally, it only works in DirectX games, not OpenGL games.

 
A method to help reduce stuttering and smooth out gameplay:

Combine Adaptive Vsync with Framerate Limiting.

1 - Find a framerate that you will be ABOVE 99% of the time.
- example: If you have a 60Hz monitor and you typically get 35-45 fps set your Adaptive Vsync to "half-refresh rate". This sets your Vsync cap at 30Hz.

2 - Set your Framerate Limiter to 30. This limits your graphics card to rendering a max of 30fps

This syncs both your monitor and graphics cards to your systems performance level. By setting them just below your sustained fps level it will smooth out your gameplay experience.

If you have an uber rig you may be getting over 60fps so using full adaptive sets a 60Hz cap (if you have 60Hz monitor) so use a limiter of 60fps.

If you have a lot of mods installed you may only be getting 24fps so setting the cap at 30 would do you no good. Use "1/3-refresh rate" and cap it at 20fps.

20fps may sound low but, with the smoothness of the gameplay, you will percieve it as feeling much higher.
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#26 JudgmentJay

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 04:58 PM

[quote name=''Aiyen' pid='49855' dateline='1378933303']I remember reading it way back when I started getting into skyrim in detail. There was a test where there was a cap set from 30 and up' date=' and the conclusion was that there was no noticeable difference in the flow of the game.[/quote']

What do you mean by flow of the game? There is a huge difference between 30 and 60 FPS in Skyrim or any game for that matter.
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#27 johnnyboy88

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 05:06 PM

[quote='DoYouEvenModBro' pid='49847' dateline='1378930745']
[quote] Also, at least for AMD, you can only force triple buffering for OpenGL Games. i believe Skyrim is Direct3d. [/quote]
[/quote]
You can enable Triple Buffering for D3D games on ATI cards by using either of the following

ATI Tray Tools
https://radeon.ru/downloads/att/

D3Doverrider
https://www.guru3d.c.../rivatuner.html

D3Doverrider comes packaged with RivaTuner which is for Nvidia but D3Doverrider still works with ATI

 

[quote='JudgmentJay' pid='49863' dateline='1378936729']
[quote name=''Aiyen' pid='49855' dateline='1378933303']I remember reading it way back when I started getting into skyrim in detail. There was a test where there was a cap set from 30 and up' date=' and the conclusion was that there was no noticeable difference in the flow of the game.[/quote']

What do you mean by flow of the game? There is a huge difference between 30 and 60 FPS in Skyrim or any game for that matter.[/quote]

"A huge difference" That is a subjective opinion and everyone is going to perceive it differently, it also depends on a lot of other factors. Such as how much action is going on such as explosions and fighting vs fishing and watching a sunset. Motion blurring will also have an effect as well as anti-aliasing and anisotropic filtering. Texture resolutions and display resolution and screen size. Not to mention the fact that everyone has different eyeballs.
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#28 JudgmentJay

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 05:36 PM

[quote name=''johnnyboy88' pid='49865' dateline='1378937211']"A huge difference" That is a subjective opinion and everyone is going to perceive it differently' date=' it also depends on a lot of other factors. Such as how much action is going on such as explosions and fighting vs fishing and watching a sunset. Motion blurring will also have an effect as well as anti-aliasing and anisotropic filtering. Texture resolutions and display resolution and screen size. Not to mention the fact that everyone has different eyeballs.[/quote']

Obviously the effects of differences in FPS are conditional, but in Skyrim simply looking around with your mouse is noticeably less smooth at 30 FPS than it is at 60. To me it's unplayable. Motion blur can mask it to some degree you're right, but it's still visible. To anyone who has played Dark Souls for extended periods of time on console or vanilla PC, search for and download a 60 FPS video (YouTube won't show the difference as it's capped at 30 FPS). It will blow your mind.
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#29 johnnyboy88

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 05:57 PM

I'm not saying some people will not notice a difference. I'm just saying that the way you made it sound, sounded like you were stating a fact. And the fact is, some people won't notice a difference in the flow of the game and others will. Perhaps it wasn't your intention. But statements like that make make some people think they need more when they really don't. It's kind of like a placebo effect.  FPS counters certainly add to it as well. It's my belief that people shouldn't use fps counters unless they notice stuttering and or lag.

Then they can use them as a tool to try and smooth out their gameplay. Then they can turn them off again.

Here is a little program to show the difference between 30fps and 60fps. For me the difference is hardly noticeable and I certainly can't claim that it would be "unplayable" at 30fps

FPSCompare by Andreas Gustafsson

You should really read this page on fps it covers all the stuff we're talking about
https://www.tweakgui...Graphics_5.html
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#30 Aiyen

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Posted 11 September 2013 - 06:11 PM

What do you mean by flow of the game? There is a huge difference between 30 and 60 FPS in Skyrim or any game for that matter.

First a semi joke: Hats of to you if you can actually see/feel that difference in ... say a turn based card game! 

I know some people have that "30 FPS and its unplayable" and I can respect that. I can even partly understand it... I have a thing about resolutions... I could play at 1080p but my monitors native is 1440p, and the scaling just triggers something in my eyes that makes the whole scene look meh! However for FPS I am more.... forgiving. Especially for games like Skyrim, where I would rather have a more pretty game then one that plays like counter strike. 

If I go about looking for the issue, scrolling around like a madman, then yes I will be able to notice a difference. However just playing the game then nope... I do not feel any real difference once I get past 30-35 FPS. The controls are mostly smooth as long as I do not expect to be able to make a jump off a clif, while loading a new cell spinning around all the time in one smooth movement. But again that is not really how I play, or expect to play skyrim.

What I meant with flow of the game is essentially this. 
In an FPS shooter, the minute difference between 30 and 60 FPS can mean the difference between how fast you can move your pointer to the right spot, hence it matters. 

For skyrim... as long as you have the enemy inside the screen and in range .. you will hit almost no matter where you aim (basically). Also you will be able to block equally as effective at both 30 and 60 FPS.  Hence the flow of the games combat is not really affected, since you do not need any split second decision making, or super fast movements. Also just walking around I do not do super fast turns since there is no reason. I can do a 180 in one smooth movement of my mouse and I am happy. 

I do not dispute that you can feel them if you go look for them, but do I just do not see why you would need them.
The only thing I ever had issues with is the input lag... 
I knew that mouse acceleration was an issue hence its disabled. But beyond that I never seemed to be able to make it go away other then to reduce features. Especially certain AA techniques and skylighting in terms of Skyrim seems to be having an effect.
Say I get 20 FPS with skylighting on... the game feels really heavy. 
I disable skylighting and increase the quality of AO to get the same FPS.. but the game does not feel equally as heavy. 
Another non ENB related way of seeing it was, to increase the amount of grass, compared to just increasing the shadow quality. One would feel different then the other even though the average FPS was about the same. But I guess if the difference is +/- 1 FPS dependent then it makes sense that they would. Just thought of that as a bit far fetched.  

Edit: Also thanks again for the links and insight johnnyboy88! Nice learn something new so I know better next time!


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