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Plugin Count May Matter (More)


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#1 Neovalen

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 11:27 PM

Found this out in the SkyUI threads. https://forums.beths...7#entry23032032 Digest and discuss. :)
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#2 phazer11

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Posted 22 October 2013 - 11:47 PM

Hmm... I'd noticed something similar to this when I was eliminating and combining mods and doing some bug crushing when I was doing my SR+SkyRE install. I'll have to pay attention when I'm setting up my list for when I upgrade my Graphics card next month and see if it holds true... Although who knows it may be an easy fix for SKSE and be a thing of the past by then (one could hope with people like Altimor)

#3 TechAngel85

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 12:02 AM

Can someone translate that into English please? I don't speak code unless it's extremely simple code.

#4 EssArrBee

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 12:35 AM

So, basically you have a 255 plugin limit, but some Papyrus functions will not work over 80. Something about after 80 it turns plugin numbers into negative values. Fun Fact: Beth also coded the Healthcare.gov

#5 TechAngel85

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 12:44 AM

Sooo... basically, install your texture mods at the bottom of your installation and your scripted mods at the towards the top whenever possible; limiting them to no more than 80? Problem solved?

#6 Neovalen

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 01:00 AM

So, basically you have a 255 plugin limit, but some Papyrus functions will not work over 80. Something about after 80 it turns plugin numbers into negative values.

Fun Fact: Beth also coded the Healthcare.gov

7F = 127...

so keep it under 128 plugins.
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#7 DoubleYou

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 01:18 AM

I guess there must be exceptions to this rule? Because I load More Hotkeys Please, a rather intense scripting mod that relies heavily on SKSE and SkyUI MCM menu, at B8 (the 198th plugin) in my load order and it works perfectly.

#8 mothergoose729

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 02:00 AM

The post isn't very specific. It seems that papyrus use a single byte signed integer to refer to mods in the load order, and reference their content. Items above 7F trip two's complement and you get negative. Negative is bad, the post isn't really specific why. Basically its how binary numbers work. In a 1 byte integer code, (8 bits) you can represent numbers up to 2^8, which is 256. This is all positive though (probably what bethesda should have used), if you want to store positive and negative numbers, then the last bit in the 8 bit pattern is the "signed bit". If that bit is 1, then the number is interpreted completely differently. For 7F+1 this would be signed -128 I think. This means papyrus is counting mods and the bit pattern is incrementing, la de da 126, 127, signed bit gets set now and oops, next mod is number -128. Which could be bad depending on what skyrim does with that number.
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#9 EssArrBee

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 09:12 AM

It might be a system where they were trying to get around a seven bit number so they used -128 to 128 for the 255 limit. At 7f+1 you get -1, 7f+2 you get -2... up to -128 and that stops some Papyrus functions from working. I think that with Beth having their own language they should release it like java or python so it can be updated separate of the game. Well, maybe not lke those languages, but you get my point.

#10 TechAngel85

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 09:48 AM

So is this 128 mods installed or 128 ESM/ESPs loaded? If it's the latter, I could only see this affecting heavily modded games. Even STEP is at least half just replacement mods that have no ESP included; however, in my STEP Extended install I have 124 ESM/ESPs.

#11 EssArrBee

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 09:56 AM

No it is plugins, the game has no way of telling how many mods total you have installed, it can basically only see how many total files are overwritten by one another.

#12 TechAngel85

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 10:00 AM

[quote name=''techangel85' pid='54621' dateline='1382539692']So is this 128 mods installed or 128 ESM/ESPs loaded? If it's the latter' date=' I could only see this affecting heavily modded games. Even STEP is at least half just replacement mods that have no ESP included; however, in my STEP Extended install I have 124 ESM/ESPs.[/quote']
[quote name=''EssArrBee' pid='54624' dateline='1382540175']No it is plugins' date=' the game has no way of telling how many mods total you have installed, it can basically only see how many total files are overwritten by one another.[/quote']
So basically, if I add a few more ESP mods I could test this out.

#13 Nearox

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 10:08 AM

My STEP: Extended 2.2.7 has 140 esms/esps (including the Bashed Patch, the Dual Sheath Redux Patch and the ASG-AWE patch).
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#14 EssArrBee

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 10:11 AM

So is this 128 mods installed or 128 ESM/ESPs loaded? If it's the latter' date=' I could only see this affecting heavily modded games. Even STEP is at least half just replacement mods that have no ESP included; however, in my STEP Extended install I have 124 ESM/ESPs.


No it is plugins' date=' the game has no way of telling how many mods total you have installed, it can basically only see how many total files are overwritten by one another.


So basically, if I add a few more ESP mods I could test this out.

Yes. At least five plugins.

#15 TechAngel85

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Posted 23 October 2013 - 10:14 AM

My STEP: Extended 2.2.7 has 140 esms/esps (including the Bashed Patch' date=' the Dual Sheath Redux Patch and the ASG-AWE patch).


Weird... well, I did skip some mods. Especially any dealing with skeletal changes because the last time I attempted to install that stuff I fried my install and had to start over.


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