Mod organizer and the upcoming Unofficial Skyrim Changes

[GSDFan]

Originally macrads posted this in the Nexus MO forum. So that this discussion will not get buried on the nexus forums I created the question here and will respond to it here. Spoilers edited for clarity.

 

Edit. Sorry I forgot to include your original Post.

Sorry if this has been mentioned before...

 

This was posted by author of USKP,

"Then you need to make sure Mod Organizer isn't subverting the BSA load ordering - it's notorious for that, and it doing so tends to lead to people posting about how everything is set right but still not working.

If everything is set right, every other mod management tool will deliver a proper result. MO is the only one where this breaks down because of the daft feature where you can change the order that BSAs load in - or worse - force them all to unpack loose into MO's phantom Data folder."

 

If I correctly understood the issue here, BSA could have a different priority with respect to ESP loading order due to VFS feature, correct?

I believe it would be beneficial to all to explain in description, that once esp plug-ins have been sorted with BOSS, the user should then manually place the files containing bsa's in the same priority/load order the esp's have been setup. Maybe also add in future version an optional automated function for this if possible.

 

Edit: the upcoming uskp's will be ordered directly under each corresponding esm. Although uskp's will still be named as esp they are virtually esm's. How does MO deal with this? Since I can't see the official esm's in MO and can't order the USKP's manually under them.

It is my understanding that as long as the Mod ESP is checked and sorted in the load order the the corresponding BSA will follow suite. This was discussed on the Nexus forums and I have that discussion in the Spoiler below.

 

 

 

Um, I can't get my head around the BSAs tab. I mean, if installation order has priority, what's the point in ordering the BSAs?

Also, MO enables the files inside a BSA(installed as it is, not unpacked) to override loose files, so long as the bsa mod is further down in the Installation order. Is this correct? (How does it do this by the way? Some hidden Skyrim setting? Sorcery? I'm awed)

If so, then I could uncheck a bsa in the BSAs tab, and it would revert to normal behavior and be overwritten by loose files no matter the installation order, right? But why would I want that?

I'm so confused 

 

posted @ 10:22, 13 Aug 2013

 

a) If a Mod has multiple bsas you can change their order in the bsa tab.

b) Yes, MO enables files from bsas to override loose files. To do this, all checked bsas are added through the ini files (through very dark magic) and the overridden loose files aren't added to the virtual directory at all.

c) If you check a bsa it is loaded (with the above described magic). If you uncheck a bsa and there is an active esp by the same name it is loaded but overrides all loose files (default behaviour). If you uncheck a bsa and there is NO active esp by the same name, the bsa is not loaded. Why would you want that? Don't know, but who am I to judge?

Please note that for some users, for unknown reasons, the above described "dark magic" does not work thus MO can only load around 60 bsas through the ini file. These users need more manual control over how bsas are loaded.

osted @ 5:40, 14 Aug 2013 So with MO I can also load bsas without a plugin! You wield mighty magic indeed, Tannin! 

Anyway, sorry to bother you, but I've read the last issue on the bug tracker and Lojack's post about BSAs, and they spark a few more questions:

1) I assume in point c) of your post you meant: "If you uncheck a bsa and there is an active esp by the same name it is loaded but overrides is overridden by all loose files (default behaviour)".

2) What happens when bsas are both registered (in the .ini) AND loaded by a plugin? EG how do they interact with a bsa that is registered later, but does not have a plugin?

3) asinine question: in the BSAs tab, which is registered first, the one on the top or the one on the bottom? (I assume the top one, but I don't (yet) have enough conflicts to test reliably)

4) Could Nitpick help those users who can't register all their bsas? Or is MO's dark magick the same as Nitpick?

 

5) According to Lojack: "Pre-1.4.26 for Skyrim, you couln't replace a Vanilla Script file with one in a Plugin BSA. This is no longer true, it has been fixed, and script replacers should work as both Loose Files and Plugin BSAs now".

But could it be that script replacers don't work if they are in a REGISTERED bsa though? That would explain Thyrandor's issue with the UDBP.

Sorry for asking so many questions.. I'm done, I promise! And BTW the program is awesome. It makes even me feel like a wizard when I switch some mods around 

Edit: added links, butchered the post somehow.

 

posted @ 11:01, 14 Aug 2013

 

1) Umm, you're right actually. This was changed in a patch. You're right then: If you check the bsa, MO makes it so the load order corresponds to to your mod order. If you uncheck, it is only loaded if there is a corresponding esp and then loose files always override.

 

2) Good question actually. afaik the bsa in this case is loaded as a registered bsa, therefore: if the bsa is not checked in mo but there is a matching plugin, that bsa will override.

What do you mean by "registered later"? They can only be registered in the ini and those get loaded first.

 

3) yes, they are loaded top to bottom. Those from the data directory (vanilla bsas should be at the top)

 

4) MO's "dark magic" works very similar to Nitpick. While Nitpick has MO finds the correct "hack position" by searching for a pattern and thus supports basically any skyrim version (actually it also works for oblivion and the fallouts) whereas nitpick requires a new release for each update.

HOWEVER it's actually the searching that fails on affected users so nitpick will either crash skyrim on the affected systems or it will actually work.

 

5) good questions, I didn't have an opportunity to check that issue.

 

posted @ 10:22, 13 Aug 2013

 

a) If a Mod has multiple bsas you can change their order in the bsa tab.

 

b) Yes, MO enables files from bsas to override loose files. To do this, all checked bsas are added through the ini files (through very dark magic) and the overridden loose files aren't added to the virtual directory at all.

 

c) If you check a bsa it is loaded (with the above described magic). If you uncheck a bsa and there is an active esp by the same name it is loaded but overrides all loose files (default behaviour). If you uncheck a bsa and there is NO active esp by the same name, the bsa is not loaded. Why would you want that? Don't know, but who am I to judge?

Please note that for some users, for unknown reasons, the above described "dark magic" does not work thus MO can only load around 60 bsas through the ini file. These users need more manual control over how bsas are loaded.

 

posted @ 5:40, 14 Aug 2013

 

So with MO I can also load bsas without a plugin! You wield mighty magic indeed, Tannin!

Anyway, sorry to bother you, but I've read the last issue on the bug tracker and Lojack's post about BSAs, and they spark a few more questions:

 

1) I assume in point c) of your post you meant: "If you uncheck a bsa and there is an active esp by the same name it is loaded but overrides is overridden by all loose files (default behaviour)".

 

2) What happens when bsas are both registered (in the .ini) AND loaded by a plugin? EG how do they interact with a bsa that is registered later, but does not have a plugin?

 

3) asinine question: in the BSAs tab, which is registered first, the one on the top or the one on the bottom? (I assume the top one, but I don't (yet) have enough conflicts to test reliably)

 

4) Could Nitpick help those users who can't register all their bsas? Or is MO's dark magick the same as Nitpick?

 

5) According to Lojack: "Pre-1.4.26 for Skyrim, you couln't replace a Vanilla Script file with one in a Plugin BSA. This is no longer true, it has been fixed, and script replacers should work as both Loose Files and Plugin BSAs now".

But could it be that script replacers don't work if they are in a REGISTERED bsa though? That would explain Thyrandor's issue with the UDBP.

 

Sorry for asking so many questions.. I'm done, I promise! And BTW the program is awesome. It makes even me feel like a wizard when I switch some mods around

 

Edit: added links, butchered the post somehow.

1) Umm, you're right actually. This was changed in a patch. You're right then: If you check the bsa, MO makes it so the load order corresponds to to your mod order. If you uncheck, it is only loaded if there is a corresponding esp and then loose files always override.

 

2) Good question actually. afaik the bsa in this case is loaded as a registered bsa, therefore: if the bsa is not checked in mo but there is a matching plugin, that bsa will override.

What do you mean by "registered later"? They can only be registered in the ini and those get loaded first.

 

3) yes, they are loaded top to bottom. Those from the data directory (vanilla bsas should be at the top)

 

4) MO's "dark magic" works very similar to Nitpick. While Nitpick has MO finds the correct "hack position" by searching for a pattern and thus supports basically any skyrim version (actually it also works for oblivion and the fallouts) whereas nitpick requires a new release for each update.

HOWEVER it's actually the searching that fails on affected users so nitpick will either crash skyrim on the affected systems or it will actually work.

 

5) good questions, I didn't have an opportunity to check that issue.

 

 

 

As to the false ESM question Tannin responded to a similar question on 9 Sept 2013 on the nexus forums and is investigating that.

 

 

 

 

Posted 8 Sep 2013 by  rickerhk

 

The USKP will be going to a 'false esm' for the next releases. https://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1472909-relz-unofficial-skyrim-patch-thread-36/?do=findComment&comment=22996329

 

A 'false esm' is an esp with the esm flag set. The problem is, with version 12.9, I can't move the USKP up in the load order with the other esms after setting the esm bit. The edited file is in the over-write directory. Wondering if 0.99.6 has the same issue?

 

Fallout needs to use false esm's a lot too. Especially Fallout 3. So MO needs to recognize them and let you adjust the load order up amongst the other esm plugins.

posted @ 23:18, 8 Sep 2013 by  wolverine2710

The 0.99.x series change report does not mention changed behavior. Do you have an example of a mod which has a 'false esm' or can you provide me with one (PM me), then I will test it for you. Reason: I haven't used CK or Tes5Edit that much. I recommend switching to 0.99.6 anyway, its for me as stable as 0.12.9 BUT has a slew of new features (see change button at top of this forum).

 

If it does not work in MO 0.99.6 please be so kind to create a ticket for it in the issue tracker. Login first.

posted @ 12:53, 9 Sep 2013 Tannin42

No version of MO recognizes false esm's right now but I realize this is becoming important. I'll see how hard it would be to add it for the next release.

 

 

 

 

Hopefully as time goes on and more information becomes available, this thread will contain the updated information.

[Tannin]

First things last: Mod Organizer should deal with "false esms" correctly in the current version (since a few versions actually).

 

With MO, assuming all archives are "checked", the BSAs are treated exactly as if they were loose files. That means the priority depends solely on the mod order (that's the left pane in MO!) and NOT on the esp order. This is imho a neat feature because it lets you ignore BSA ordering completely. To understand BSA ordering under MO all you have to do is FORGET that they are supposed to be special. You sort your mods on the left pane so you get the assets you want, you sort the right pane according to boss for maximum compatibility. End of story, it doesn't matter how they are packaged.

 

The difficulty with some mods (Unofficial Patches in particular) arises because the mod has dependencies that the author fails to document properly. USKP introduces an incompatibility with other mods (in particularly dragon soul related) and claims it has to be fixed by others.

Basically when USKP/UDBP description says "Check for: dragonactorscript.pex and/or mqkilldragonscript.pex. Remove them if present. They are from dragon mods that came as loose files." What they mean to say is this:

 

mqkilldragonscript.pex shouldn't exist at all, dragonactorscript.pex must be provided by UDBP (or USKP if Dragonborn is not installed).

- If you manually install mods or install mods through NMM you can achieve this by removing mqkilldragonscript.pex and dragonactorscript.pex from the data directory and never installing a mod that provides these files either loosely or through a bsa or, if you do, contact the author so he removes those files from the bsa.

- If you use MO, arrange the mods on the left pane so that UDBP (or USKP) is the highest priority mod containing dragonactorscript.pex (the conflict information will tell you if it is) and delete (or hide) all instances of mqkilldragonscript.pex using the "data" tab.

[wolverine2710]

As I was searching stuff both GSDFan and Tannin posted here, you are fast guys. Threw away always everything (you were quite thorough) and the following snippet remains. It looks/seems the version Tannin is referring to is Version 1.0.0rc1. The changelog mentions the following: "- fake esms are now treated as masters (as they should)"

[yuser]

[sorry, posted to wrong topic, can't delete]

[Uhuru]

I have studied false ESM issuie as I became aware of the new USkP (Unofficial Skyrim Patch) update used this method and was going to require Wrye Bash to be updated.

 

Arthmoor the main Unofficial Patches modder posted this on Wrye Bash's Bethesda Forums stating that it needed updating to handle

 

Though I respect his abilities as a modder his tact and research abilities can be lacking as this totally unfounded and hasty assessment of Mod Organizer shows.

Why?

He mistook the main feature of the virtual data folder as a flaw because he just didn't try to find out at all.

 

Live Another Life - Page 306 - Skyrim Uploaded Files - The Nexus Forums

 

Posted 19 December 2012 - 11:59 AM

 

Your Papyrus log is filled with failures. None of the scripts you're supposed to be using are installed at all. Apparently Mod Organizer is a piece of junk because the only way that log you got happens is if NONE of the BSA files are actually installed.

 

From the look of things it would be a major miracle if any of your mods actually functioned properly.

This made me unsure he would even try and get mod Organizer sorted so I checked and on unnoficial Patches suppot Site AFK Mods

Unofficial Patch ESM Conversion - Unofficial Skyrim Patches - AFK Mods

The ESM Conversion Checklist

 

 

 

Wrye Bash Support - Supported as of release 304.2.

 

NMM Support - Works as expected, NMM flags the files with a warning but allows them to move into the ESM group.

 

Mod Organizer Support - v1.0.0rc1 and up has been confirmed to work.

 

TES5Edit Support - Supported as of release 3.0.31.

 

BOSS Support - Working in 2.1.1. (was some confusion here, but it *IS* working)

 

 

 

Checklist items need to be completed before we move forward on this.

So as far as this change goes which is happenning to all Unnofficial Patches were good to go

 

[Edit] Accidently Posted when I meant to preview so quickly finished this part. I wiil add response to BSA section in this Post as well

looks like we all rushed in to defend Mod Organizer from unfounded problems due to misunderstanding features as problems and from Tannin's post sounds like problem is at other end of this and they won't fix they're mistake, I however will qualify this by saying I do not know enough about this topic to say that is the case, just it appears to be. I would need to do more research of the subject.

I was defending the Unnofficial Patches Team's work last week on Nexus as well.

[keithinhanoi]

It's clear that the false esm concern is a non-issue for anyone using MO 1.0.0 rc1 or later, so that just leaves the question of MO's methods of managing BSA's and how it affects the bugs introduced by BSA asset files that may overwrite those from the the Unofficial Patches esp cum ESMs.

 

Regardless of personalities, quickly drawn conclusions, finger-pointing and the like, the fact remains that the purpose of the UPs is to fix the base vanilla game and DLCs, and as such any mods which make changes to the same assets / records that the UPs fix would need to incorporate or "bring forward" those fixes in order for the user of the mod to gain their benefits - except in the cases where the mod changes those assets intentionally for different game behavior.

 

So if you look at mods as bricks on a foundation - as Neovalen has described in his SR guide, the bottom layer are the vanilla files, and then immediately on top of that would be the UPs, and then all of a users mods, usually in the order suggested by BOSS.

 

Since normally the UPs are loaded before any other mods, you're going to see the same problem with the dragon soul absorption script problem regardless of whether you're using MO or NMM or WB. However some mods which write these scripts as loose files already have the UP fixes incorporated and so the scripts don't need to be deleted.

 

Like anything, it boils down to user awareness. MO doesn't create the dragon soul absorption script problem any more than NMM or WB does. The user creates it, and the information on how to fix it is available. Some mods which include these scripts even have the UP fixes incorporated (Dragon Soul Absorb More Glorious is one I've used without any bugs, for example).

 

As far as MO's method of BSA management goes, I see it as much more flexible, because it gives you complete control over assets, whether they are in BSA or loose file form. It also shows you where there are conflicts (more than one mod with assets of then same name in the same directory location), and lets you sort out those conflicts how you like.

 

If anyone has big problems with the idea of their BSAs being loaded in a different order than their accompanying ESPs, then they can just de-select all BSAs in the Archives tab of the right-hand pane, and they will get the default behavior (BSAs loaded in order of accompanying ESPs, then overwritten by loose files.)

 

Personally, whenever changing the order of mods in the left pane and therefore the order any "managed" BSAs are loaded, I keep in mind that the BOSS sorting order recommendation may take BSA load order into account - or at least that BOSS ordering doesn't take any changes in BSA load order into account.

 

So I change mod order with caution, and the main driving reason to change the order is to set which one will overwrite other mods' assets. This is particularly useful with mods that have replacements for vanilla textures, meshes or sounds (or even replacements for other mods!) And this is exactly where MO shines the most IMO, because it lets you do this without constantly uninstalling and reinstalling mods or managing loads of loose file backups in different directories.

[torminater]

Hey guys, I currently don't have any direct internet connection with my gaming desktop.

It's still on MO 12.9 (the version before 0.99 beta).

However I wonder whether there is any way, I could possibly make false esms (Unofficial patches in specific) work with that version, since updating without internet connection is rather ... tedious.

 

I tried everything I could think of:

- edit load order in MO manually until it was "right".

- edit user rules with Boss userlist manager.

- lock all indexes.

- make load order and lockedorder.txt read-only

- make the changes through MO and Skyrim Launcher

 

In most cases it worked out, but USKP always got put after Dragonborn.esm after I ran the game, and the fixes never worked...

Priority/Install order by the way is correct...

 

This would just need to be an interim solution until I've got internet connection again (about 9 days from today.)

[DoubleYou]

Did you try editing the plugins.txt when you edited the loadorder.txt? I might have to recreate your situation to figure out a workaround. My suggestion: Edit plugins.txt and loadorder.txt and then recreate the situation where you have to boot into Linux to even think of trying to modify them.

[Uhuru]

the false ESM issue only affects new Unofficial Patches v2.0.0+ which only were released yesterday.

Any Mods that use this method need to update so you should be fine without updating anything.

[rootsrat]

So, regarding Unofficial Patches - just to summarise, and correct me if I'm wrong:

 

- Unofficial Patches 2.0+ can be installed and sorted as normal in MO 1.0+

- The problem with the two mentioned scripts is not a problem with MO, and user should be aware if the mods that provide those scripts and overwrite the ones provided by UPs carry UP's fixes forward OR if they change them for mod-specific purposes. If the answer to both questions is no, then the scripts should be deleted.

[wolverine2710]

Recently in the Unofficial Skyrim Patch Nexus there was a 'discussion' between Tannin and Arthmoor. For my personal opinion see spoiler.

One of them should not start working as a diplomat or we have WWIII soonish.

 

For details see around date/time "posted @ 5:42, 27 Oct 2013". It looks as if something good can come from this, as in possibly a new feature in MO.

[DoubleYou]

The Unofficial Patch false ESM conversion fixes many problems that previously caused havoc. If you used Unofficial Skyrim Patch (USKP) and Dragonborn and did not use Unofficial Dragonborn Patch (UDBP), you would not be able to absorb dragon souls. That was caused by the dragonactor script from the USKP BSA overriding the dragonactor script from the Dragonborn BSA. With the false ESM conversion, we can now load the USKP patch esp before the Dragonborn esp and avoid this problem. This was fixed in the UDBP by having a fixed script in the UDBP BSA loaded after the USKP.

 

Mod Organizer (MO) added a new dynamic when it came to BSA loading. Now BSAs were capable of being independent of esp load order. Dummy esps became unnecessary. Also, if a novice were to begin using MO and install the Unofficial Patches in a priority order different from the esp loadorder, they would encounter the same problem. The dragonactor script from the USKP installed in a higher priority than the UDBP would cause users to not be able to absorb dragon souls.

 

Inevitably, these users, who will even believe that it was the skimpy body replacer they installed that somehow corrupted their dovahkiin, will complain to Arthmoor about the problem. This, unfortunately, once the problem is solved by the user who does some computer sorcery: reinstalls Windows, and, by the way, stopped using Mod Organizer, will cause Arthmoor to blame Mod Organizer. In reality, it was the simple problem of user error. If the user would simply have changed the priority position of USKP to be less then UDBP, allowing UDBP to overwrite USKP like it is supposed to, we never would have had all these problems.

 

Summary: Computers do what they are told to do. Users do not.

[deathneko11]

In my opinion arthmoor blew it out of proportion. MO is not a faulty tool. Get off his high horse, user error was at fault here. It takes some basic modding knowledge to use MO, just as it does to use WryeBash or TES5edit without borking your game.

[torminater]

OK, I updated to MO 1.07 and USKP 2.0. The load order doesn't get reset as far as I can tell BUT:

Soul trap projectile does not work... Is there any deathproof method to check whether or not MO applies all the files correctly?

[DoubleYou]

deathneko11 Wrote

In my opinion arthmoor blew it out of proportion. MO is not a faulty tool. Get off his high horse, user error was at fault here. It takes some basic modding knowledge to use MO, just as it does to use WryeBash or TES5edit without borking your game.

I do not blame Arthmoor. He deals with faulty bug reports all the time. Same thing happens to us with Mod Organizer. The thing to remember is that Mod Organizer and the Unofficial Patches are not at odds with each other, and neither break the game when used. Only when used incorrectly do they break the game. Because most users are not smart enough to understand the whole situation for and against BSAs and how they work, issues will inevitably arise.

 

It's easy for us to bicker because we become frustrated with people and with tools. Modding requires harmony. Harmony can only exist when organized by skilled persons. Skilled persons are created though practice. Failure is an inevitable part of practice. It is when we learn from our faults and correct our mistakes that we can build harmony.

 

The common user out there does not want to practice. They simply want to play. They don't want to fix their mistakes. They believe they have the right to make mistakes and blame the tool or the tool's author. Our difficult task is how to make consonance out of this dissonance, and that is only made possible through rock 'n' roll.

[deathneko11]

If you need to see if a file is loaded correctly look in MO data section, it will be shown wherever the mod loads it. If the file is not loaded properly then it won't show in the data section.