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Better Males (by Chris57 and FavoredSoul)

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#31 Kelmych

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Posted 10 February 2014 - 08:46 PM

As far as choices for optimization, Z already mentioned them. The uncompressed textures that are particularly large can be optimized to R5G6B5 at existing resolution, at half size with full precision, at half size with R5G6B5, or with DXTx. It's best to keep at least the model space normal maps uncompressed. As several of you know, optimizing the uncompressed vanilla male body model space normal map to half size causes problems, but using R5G6B5 did not.

I'd suggest we first try seeing how it would work with R5G6B5 for the uncompressed textures in game. Run DDSopt on the body mod (Underwear - Default-2488-2-3-2) using the constraints tab parameters from here .  Using these parameters the optimization of both compressed and uncompressed is done is one pass. The resolution limits for compressed and uncompressed are independent.  This will change the body itself to a 2Kx2K compressed texture since it's already compressed. If you prefer the original 4Kx4K body change the compressed resolution limit to 4Kx4K.

Try using the same parameters for optimizing the head (Faces - GeonoxFaces-2488).

EDIT: I optimized the mod with DDSopt using the lossy uncompressed parameters mentioned above. These reduced the combined size of the textures by roughly half. Using the Preview mode in DDSopt to compare the original and optimized I couldn't see any differences in the textures I examined.  They still need to be looked at in the game, of course.

#32 Nearox

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 04:14 PM

I've started to re-optimize my mods and I thought I could report the following here about DDSOpting Better Males, to support the statement I made earlier in this thread.

1. All the *_msn.dds are in uncompressed format. These 15 textures are 16mb in file size each and take up the majority of the total texture load of this mods. When changing their format, leaving resolution intact, to DXTx and R5G6B5, the quality changes dramatically. However I found that there is little to none quality loss when you keep the uncompressed format R8G8B8 but reduce the texture size to 1k. See a few examples:

Bretton male head uncompressed 2048x0248
Posted Image                   
Bretton male head DDSopt uncompressed 1024x1024
Posted Image
Dark Elf male head uncompressed 2048x2048
Posted Image
Dark Elf male head DDSopt uncompressed 1024x1024
Posted Image

Reducing those 15 MSN files from 2k (16mb size) to 1k(5mb size) uncompressed saves more than 150mb in potential VRAM use.


2. The only other textures which I think are worth optimizing are:

Malemalebody_1.dds
DDSopt from 4k DXTx to 2k DXTx.


MaleFacedetails all files in the folder except skinpores_n.dds.
DDSopt from 1k DXTx to .5k DXTx. Little to none quality loss. Not noticeable in game unless you zoom in all the way in to the skin of face.


3. I didn’t find it worthy to reduce the diffuse textures further as they are already 2kx2k DXTx or 2kx1k DXTx.

4. DDSopting the tintmasks gave bad results regardless of the format or resolution used.

Edited by Nearox, 11 March 2014 - 04:17 PM.

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#33 Kelmych

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 04:29 PM

Did you get a chance to look at heads in a game, and did you compare the results with the alternative compression choices using the DDSopt Preview texture before/after comparison?



#34 Nearox

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 04:35 PM

I've seen some of them ingame, I'll make some screenshots later and post them here. The DDSopt preview gives different results than the preview function of MO. Not sure why that is, though I suspect it could be because the files aren't actually processed when DDSopt views them. I've had DDSopt showing incorrect previews before in other mods (SIC comes to mind) so i don't really use that anymore.
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#35 Kelmych

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 04:52 PM

The DDSopt preview mode doesn't show how textures look in game, but it can show the alpha channel of a texture and can show a map of differences between an unoptimized and optimized texture. Did you use that feature?



#36 Nearox

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 05:16 PM

My DDSopt always crashes (true story) when viewing the difference between source and destination (primary/alpha, on all mods). No idea why but as I said I use mostly the viewer of MO nowadays. I focus on the end-result really. Judging from the way you're posing the questions, I get the sense that you already looked at these (though I didn't see a post about it) and that you came to different conclusions. Anyways, I quickly made 4 screenshots. I can make more of each race tomorrow. See the album here for screens of Bretons and Dark Elfs: https://imgur.com/a/hW28x Edit: I missed the edit from your post at the 11th of february :P EDIT2: Oh yeah, forgot to say another point: use the R8G8B8 only on the face MSNs. On the body and hand MSNs (4 textures in total), you have to use DXTx or R5G5B5. R8G8B8 will mess up the textures.

Edited by Nearox, 11 March 2014 - 05:51 PM.

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#37 Kelmych

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Posted 11 March 2014 - 06:15 PM

The DDSopt preview viewer can always show characteristics of the source file, and it can show the destination image and difference image if there was no resolution change during optimization. Maybe someday Ethatron will have time to finish the implementation.

 

I was surprised since the results you mention were so different than those for the vanilla male body. I looked at these heads in more detail using comparison mode in the Compressonator. I compared the original Breton head with a same resolution head with R5G6B5 and with one at 1/2 resolution but R8G8B8. The R5G6B5 head has an artifact in the nostrils where it is way off, but everywhere else it seems to be a closer match to the original head. However, of course, what matters most is how it looks in the game. If the 1Kx1K textures look good enough, then it would be better to use them anyway.

 

In the batch file for vanilla textures I prevented the tintmasks from being optimized, and when I optimize mods I avoid optimizing tintmask textures. I don't think DDSopt has ever been configured and tested for those kinds of textures, so it doesn't do as well. Internally DDSopt has algorithms to determine what type of texture is being optimized and how to best optimize it; it's not a one-size-fits-all process.



#38 Nearox

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Posted 12 March 2014 - 06:19 AM

Ah nice I didn't know that about DDSopt previewer. Yeah I am also slightly surprised that so far at least the quality difference ingame between 2k and 1k is negligible and largely non-existent, as you can see from the screenshot album I linked. Also, the facedetail files with the paints etc. are originally 1K in Better Males. If you compare this to STEP baseline, where even some big exterior textures (e.g roads) are 1k, then I think an equal texture size for a small facedetail is disproportionate. Surely, there's a good reason for facial (and to some extent body) textures to have a bit more detail - after all we want them to look like actual actors. But BMs uncompressed texture sizes of the MSN files are way too heavy especially considering that probably all of those files loose very little (if any in-game) quality when reducing their size to 1k. I don't know. I probably shouldn't be making a big point out of this all... Better Males is IMHO a great mod and I use it in every setup, but in its original form it is relatively extremely taxing on average systems.
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#39 torminater

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Posted 14 March 2014 - 05:14 AM

I cannot find any difference inbetween optimized and unoptimized quality wise...

jeez, good find!


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#40 z929669

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 12:27 PM

I've started to re-optimize my mods and I thought I could report the following here about DDSOpting Better Males, to support the statement I made earlier in this thread.

1. All the *_msn.dds are in uncompressed format. These 15 textures are 16mb in file size each and take up the majority of the total texture load of this mods. When changing their format, leaving resolution intact, to DXTx and R5G6B5, the quality changes dramatically. However I found that there is little to none quality loss when you keep the uncompressed format R8G8B8 but reduce the texture size to 1k. See a few examples:

Bretton male head uncompressed 2048x0248
Posted Image                   
Bretton male head DDSopt uncompressed 1024x1024
Posted Image
Dark Elf male head uncompressed 2048x2048
Posted Image
Dark Elf male head DDSopt uncompressed 1024x1024
Posted Image

Reducing those 15 MSN files from 2k (16mb size) to 1k(5mb size) uncompressed saves more than 150mb in potential VRAM use.


2. The only other textures which I think are worth optimizing are:

Malemalebody_1.dds
DDSopt from 4k DXTx to 2k DXTx.


MaleFacedetails all files in the folder except skinpores_n.dds.
DDSopt from 1k DXTx to .5k DXTx. Little to none quality loss. Not noticeable in game unless you zoom in all the way in to the skin of face.


3. I didn’t find it worthy to reduce the diffuse textures further as they are already 2kx2k DXTx or 2kx1k DXTx.

4. DDSopting the tintmasks gave bad results regardless of the format or resolution used.

The "quality loss" is not real. The optimized versions are not normalized ... you can look at the normalized version in Gimp with the correct plugins ... the game shader normalizes, so there is no perceptible quality loss in game (this is true for any optimized MSN)

 

565 uncompressed is the best conversion format, which will reduce the texture size by 1/3. You can also convert to 1k of course for 2/3 total reduction (if I am doing the math correctly). Use this method for face hands and any MSN normal maps :;):



#41 Nearox

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 12:48 PM

Oh sweet I didn't know that! Surely going to try out .5k then. I'm not that well versed with the technicalities of textures or meshes in general. It was merely my observation that reducing the resolution of this mod will substantially reduce your VRAM usage without quality loss. What I wonder about though is why the author uses 2k textures then when there is no perceptible quality loss in the game? If you choose .5k instead of the default, then the total VRAM saved (assuming all, or virtually all, different male races are present in a city scene) can be even more than 150mb. Choosing 1k will save 100-120mb as previously mentioned. My question is what do you think you will do about this for STEP Baseline (or Performance)? I understand directing users to use another tool, DDSopt, just for this one mod might be a bit too much.

Edited by Nearox, 18 March 2014 - 12:49 PM.

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#42 z929669

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 01:57 PM

I like body textures at 2k and just use the 565 uncompressed format for all MSN bodies (1/3 reduction [2/3 size] from 888). I think the default for HRDLC vanilla is actually uncompressed 4k 888 (male/female bodies, not argonians and kajiits) ... IIRC.



#43 Kelmych

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 02:13 PM

The male body MSN is 2kx2k R8G8B8 in HRDLC.

#44 phazer11

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 06:17 PM

So... no quality loss in game? Might help me squeeze a little bit more FPS (due to texture load causing stuttering)



#45 Nearox

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Posted 18 March 2014 - 06:48 PM

Not that I noticed no... I'm too busy with regs atm to do a screenshot comparison of the other races though. In a previous post I compared bretons and Dark Elfs, check them here https://imgur.com/a/hW28x

Edited by Nearox, 18 March 2014 - 06:48 PM.

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