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#301 GrantSP

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Posted 04 February 2015 - 08:09 PM

...

You need to optimize all of the BSAs since the High Res Texture packs only replace a portion of the vanilla textures in Skyrim - textures.bsa and the DLC BSAs...

Brilliant. That is exactly the sort of knowledge that makes these things necessary.

Well done @Kelmych.



#302 Kelmych

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Posted 04 February 2015 - 09:58 PM

It's worth noting that there are only a small number of textures in the optimized versions of each of the 3 DLC BSAs that are actually used when the optimized HRDLC is present, and even fewer when a lot of the STEP and/or SR:LE mods are used. I have one non-STEP mod, for example, that when used overwrites the remaining optimized Hearthfires optimized textures and makes the Hearthfires optimized textures redundant.



#303 junglejudas

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Posted 05 February 2015 - 01:45 PM

In this specific scenario, where you have optimised versions of both the vanilla and the Hi-Res textures, I do find it strange to have them both.

 

 

 

indeed, it's finally sinking in why DDSopt is not Core (and that using it at greater length beyond basic vanilla/DLC makes the larger difference).

 

thank you for emphasizing the Conflicts tab.  accordingly, all of the optimized textures for expansions are provided by a combination of unmanaged HR, optimized HR (seems to be the vast majority) and unofficial HR patch (very few) ... all of which have larger priority numbers ...

 

so if i am beginning to wrap my mind aroud this, that translates to: "between unmanaged, optimized and unofficially-patched Hi-Res Texture Pack DLC, everything identified as optimized [d'guard+h'fires+d'born] textures will be ignored because all of that stuff's already been loaded".

 

i had been presuming that DDSopt made improved versions of files with identical names, and expecting MO to overwrite based on load order alone.

 

If you have each of the cleaned Bethesda DLC esm plugins in a separate mod

 

i attempted to duplicate the procedure laid out in the GamerPoet's tes5edit cleaning walkthrough; i'll assume that's what "in a separate mod" means.

 

the optimized textures should be installed after the corresponding cleaned DLC plugin and before the unofficial DLC patch.

 

 

i'm trying to selectively ignore sentences like this (which when considered along with other sentences are threatening to do my head in) and focus on what i should be seeing when i look at the left pane (which seems like it shouldn't be able to leave any room for interpretation).

 

You need to optimize all of the BSAs since the High Res Texture packs only replace a portion of the vanilla textures in Skyrim - textures.bsa and the DLC BSAs.

 

are some of these simply overlooked in MO's Conflict determination?  with

[all items containing the label 'HR' or 'high res']

at lower pane positions/larger priority numbers than

[all other DLC items]

- a situation identical on the screenshot you provided (thank you again) and on my current left pane

- my Conflicts seem to state that the optimized expansion textures are serving no purpose.

 

If you include all of the STEP CORE mods then you could potentially use the STEP BSA

 

i shall be looking forward to that with great optimism!  thanks again.


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#304 GrantSP

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Posted 05 February 2015 - 05:13 PM

Couple of things.

Every item in the left-hand pane can be considered a 'mod' so:

Unmanaged: Dawnguard is a mod

cleaned Dawnguard.ESM is a mod (even though this is essentially the same file as from Unmanaged: Dawnguard , just cleaned)

Dawnguard Textures opt is a mod

Unofficial Dawnguard Patch is a mod

 

Things that pass the 'conflict' examination

ModA has some files: Texture1, Texture2, Texture3, Texture4, Texture5, Texture6, PluginA

ModB has just one plugin: PluginC

ModC has some other files: Texture4Texture5Texture7,

ModD, more files again: Texture1, Texture2, Texture3, PluginA, PluginB

 

Assuming those mods are in that order in the left-hand pane the files that get through to be used in the game are the ones highlighted.

 

ModB's file PluginC gets through the conflict because, although there are two other mods lower than it, they contain no conflicting files, it is the only one that contains PluginC.



#305 Kelmych

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Posted 05 February 2015 - 10:38 PM

 

 

 

indeed, it's finally sinking in why DDSopt is not Core (and that using it at greater length beyond basic vanilla/DLC makes the larger difference).

 

thank you for emphasizing the Conflicts tab.  accordingly, all of the optimized textures for expansions are provided by a combination of unmanaged HR, optimized HR (seems to be the vast majority) and unofficial HR patch (very few) ... all of which have larger priority numbers ...

 

 

 

 

so if i am beginning to wrap my mind aroud this, that translates to: "between unmanaged, optimized and unofficially-patched Hi-Res Texture Pack DLC, everything identified as optimized [d'guard+h'fires+d'born] textures will be ignored because all of that stuff's already been loaded".

 

 

Not really. If all the textures from the DLC were replaced there would be no point to optimizing them. If you have loaded only the following into Mod Organizer:

the Skyrim esm

Update esm (and cleaned version)

DLC esms (and cleaned versions)

the  unofficial patches for skyrim, the 3 DLC, and the high resolution patch

the 7 files with optimized vanilla textures

 

and if they are installed in the correct order, you should see the following in the conflicts tab for each of the optimized DLC textures:

Dawnguard textures optimized: 248 textures that are provided by this mod

Hearthfires textures optimized: 0 textures are provided by this mod

Dragonborn textures optimized: 216 textures that are provided by this mod

 

Make sure that both the uncleaned (unmanaged) and cleaned DLC esms are each loaded before the corresponding optimized textures file.

 

i had been presuming that DDSopt made improved versions of files with identical names, and expecting MO to overwrite based on load order alone.

DDSopt does exactly this, and in general MO overwrites based on installation order not load order. Load order is the order of the plugins.

 

i attempted to duplicate the procedure laid out in the GamerPoet's tes5edit cleaning walkthrough; i'll assume that's what "in a separate mod" means.

 

 

i'm trying to selectively ignore sentences like this (which when considered along with other sentences are threatening to do my head in) and focus on what i should be seeing when i look at the left pane (which seems like it shouldn't be able to leave any room for interpretation).

 

are some of these simply overlooked in MO's Conflict determination?  with

[all items containing the label 'HR' or 'high res']

at lower pane positions/larger priority numbers than

[all other DLC items]

- a situation identical on the screenshot you provided (thank you again) and on my current left pane

- my Conflicts seem to state that the optimized expansion textures are serving no purpose.

as I said above, you should have the Dawnguard and Dragonborn optimized textures shown as providing textures in the conflicts tab. 

 

i shall be looking forward to that with great optimism!  thanks again.

 



#306 junglejudas

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Posted 06 February 2015 - 02:31 AM

 


 If all the textures from the DLC were replaced there would be no point to optimizing them.

If you have loaded only the following into Mod Organizer:

the Skyrim esm

Update esm (and cleaned version)

DLC esms (and cleaned versions)

the  unofficial patches for skyrim, the 3 DLC, and the high resolution patch

the 7 files with optimized vanilla textures

 

here's what i see on the screenshot:
1 SKSE
2 STD opt
3 USP
4 unmanaged Dawnguard
5 Dawnguard opt
6 unofficial Dawnguard
7 unmanaged Hearthfires
8 Hearthfires opt
9 unofficial Hearthfires
10 unmanaged Dragonborn
11 Dragonborn opt
12 unofficial Dragonborn
13-15 unmanaged HR packs
16-18 HR opt
19 unofficial HR

here's what i see on my left pane:
1 cleaned Update
2 SKSE
3 STD opt
4 USP
5 unmanaged Dawnguard
6 cleaned Dawnguard
7 DawnguardOpt
8 unofficial Dawnguard
9 unmanaged Hearthfires

10 cleaned Hearthfires
11 HearthfiresOpt
12 unofficial Hearthfires
13 unmanaged Dragonborn
14 cleaned Dragonborn
15 DragonbornOpt
16 unofficial Dragonborn
17-19 unmanaged HR
20-22 HR Opt
23 unofficial HR
24 stable ugrids
25 distant decal fix
26 appropriate jarls
27 jump fix
28 clothing/clutter
29 consistent older people
30 cutting room floor
31 dbc fix
32 dcf plugin
33 fast travel timescale
34 fuz ro doh
35 guard dialog
36 improved closefaced
37 alt-F4 functionality

here's what my Conflicts tabs are showing:

dawnguardOpt - the following conflicted files are provided by other mods:
        2814 conflicted files provided by other mods (10 by Unofficial HR patch, 248 by unmanaged HR pack 2, the rest by Optimized HR 2 and 3)
        0 conflicted files provided by this patch
        0 nonconflicted files
 

Hearthfires textures optimized: 0 textures are provided by this mod

 

well, that's not encouraging ;) (but if 0 are provided, shouldn't the screenshot show white lightning?)

dragonbornOpt -
        0 files provided
        0 nonconflicted files
        18 provided by unofficial HR patch, 216 by unmanaged HR pack 3, 294 by Optimized HR 3, 8343 by Optimized HR 2

 

Make sure that both the uncleaned (unmanaged) and cleaned DLC esms are each loaded before the corresponding optimized textures file.

 

see above, but at this point it doesn't seem to matter how i arrange them, because Conflicts say the HR mods provide everything.

 

in general MO overwrites based on installation order not load order. Load order is the order of the plugins.

 

 i definitely installed all of the HR mods after all other DLC mods, as indicated in 2.2.9 ...

 

as I said above, you should have the Dawnguard and Dragonborn optimized textures shown as providing textures in the conflicts tab. 


then it's sounding like time to DDSopt at least the three expansion BSAs all over again?

 

thanks for your patience.

 


Edited by junglejudas, 06 February 2015 - 02:34 AM.

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#307 Kelmych

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Posted 06 February 2015 - 02:27 PM

The install order you show seems correct.

Lets look at a few examples in Dawnguard and try to see what is happening:

 

In the conflicts tab for the optimized Dawnguard textures find

.../textures/dlc01/soulcairn/scrater_m.dds

and

.../textures/dlc01/plants/pinkflowertree01.dds

 

In my conflicts tab these overwrite Unmanaged: Dawnguard, and no other mod overwrites these. See what you have as overwriting these textures (i.e., Providing mod) in the lower part of the conflicts tab

 

I checked the textures in the HRDLC and the Unofficial Dawnguard patch, and these textures are not available in any of these.

 

By the way, the Hearthfires BSA optimization is included for users who don't use the HRDLC. Some users with systems with 1 GB VRAM or less don't use the HRDLC. We'll put a note in the DDSopt QuickStart guide that those using the HRDLC don't need to optimize the Hearthfires BSA textures.



#308 GrantSP

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Posted 06 February 2015 - 06:53 PM

I'm not sure if this is clear to you or not, its so hard to tell with new MO users, but the order the plugins are in the left-hand pane isn't really an issue as these are sorted correctly in the right-hand pane, as they would in any other mod manager.

The only caveat to this, is when that specific plugin exists in 2 or more mods, as is the case with the cleaned/dirty DLCs. Then it DOES make a difference where they ordered in the left-hand pane.

 

So, you could, if you were so inclined, have your left pane ordered this way:

 

5 unmanaged Dawnguard   \
7 DawnguardOpt                 |- This order is important because of the *.DDS files (optomised or not) in these mods, so too for the next sets of mods.
8 unofficial Dawnguard       /
9 unmanaged Hearthfires  

11 HearthfiresOpt
12 unofficial Hearthfires
13 unmanaged Dragonborn
15 DragonbornOpt
16 unofficial Dragonborn

14 cleaned Dragonborn

10 cleaned Hearthfires

6 cleaned Dawnguard

 

 

 

This would still work since the cleaned DLC are only overwriting the ESMs from the vanilla DLCs.

The right-hand pane will take these cleaned ESMs and order them correctly, all the left-hand pane is tell MO which plugins or assets are AVAILABLE to use. In this case the dirty ones lose and clean ones, although looking jumbled, will be sorted correctly in game by their position in the right-hand pane.

 

I hope that doesn't confuse the issue. I only mention it because I got the inkling that there was a misunderstanding in what is important regarding order of these mods.



#309 shiningfury

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Posted 06 February 2015 - 08:56 PM

The install order you show seems correct.

Lets look at a few examples in Dawnguard and try to see what is happening:

 

In the conflicts tab for the optimized Dawnguard textures find

.../textures/dlc01/soulcairn/scrater_m.dds

and

.../textures/dlc01/plants/pinkflowertree01.dds

 

In my conflicts tab these overwrite Unmanaged: Dawnguard, and no other mod overwrites these. See what you have as overwriting these textures (i.e., Providing mod) in the lower part of the conflicts tab

 

I checked the textures in the HRDLC and the Unofficial Dawnguard patch, and these textures are not available in any of these.

 

By the way, the Hearthfires BSA optimization is included for users who don't use the HRDLC. Some users with systems with 1 GB VRAM or less don't use the HRDLC. We'll put a note in the DDSopt QuickStart guide that those using the HRDLC don't need to optimize the Hearthfires BSA textures.

After following the guide at https://wiki.step-pr...e:DDSopt/Skyrim my results match those of junglejudas; namely, Mod Organizer indicates that the optimized folders for Dawnguard, Hearthfires, and Dragonborn are redundant. Here is a screenshot of the relevant part of MO:

https://i.imgur.com/lSnHzsa.jpg

 

And here is a screenshot of the Conflicts tab of my Dawnguard_Optimized with one of the examples you provided:

https://i.imgur.com/lTy7eaf.jpg

 

I just finished the optimization and have only tested for a few minutes in the game around Riverwood and don't see any problems, but I thought it might be useful to provide another example of possibly redundant files being manipulated during the process outlined in the excellent guide on the wiki.


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#310 junglejudas

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Posted 06 February 2015 - 11:37 PM

In the conflicts tab for the optimized Dawnguard textures find

.../textures/dlc01/soulcairn/scrater_m.dds

nothing by that exact name, but

../soulcairn/sccrater1_m.dds is provided by unmanaged HR pack 2

others with 'sccrater' in name by Optimized HR2
 

 

and

.../textures/dlc01/plants/pinkflowertree01.dds

 

Providing Mod:  Unmanaged HiRes Pack 2


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#311 junglejudas

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Posted 06 February 2015 - 11:52 PM

 

 

 

. . .

I hope that doesn't confuse the issue. I only mention it because I got the inkling that there was a misunderstanding in what is important regarding order of these mods.

for all i know, my eyesight will have degraded too far for fiddling with textures to matter at all, by the time everything is perfectly clear and functioning as intended (or i just end up skipping DDSopt because the appeal of other mods outweighs my desire for enhanced visuals).  but i appreciate your efforts; they will inevitably be assimilated into my understanding (or what passes for one) of the many processes being employed to elevate our Skyrim experiences.


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#312 Kelmych

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Posted 07 February 2015 - 02:33 AM

The optimized textures you created are fine. In addition to high resolutions versions of selected vanilla textures from Skyrim - textures.bsa and the 3 DLC BSAs, the original HighResTexture BSA packs contain duplicate copies of the rest of the textures in the DLC BSAs (the ones for which there are no high resolution versions in the HRDLC). These duplicates were removed in the first optimization step (cleaning the HRDLC) and are not contained in the optimized HRDLC (since there are already optimized versions in the optimized textures from the 3 DLCs). Somehow Mod Organizer on your system is using the non-highres textures from the 3 Unmanaged HighResTexturePacks which are exact duplicates of textures in the DLC BSAs. It should not be doing this since the HighResTexturePack BSA are not supposed to be used at all. It's not doing this behavior for my Skyrim installation. I've been trying different Mod Organizer configurations to see whether I can get MO in my Skyrim installation to make the same error that you are seeing; I haven't managed to do this yet.

 

Do make sure that in the right pane in the Plugins tab that the 3 HighResTexturePack plugins are unchecked. In the Archives tab make sure "Have MO manage archives" is checked, and the 3 Unmanaged HighResTexturePack BSAs should not be checked.



#313 shiningfury

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Posted 07 February 2015 - 07:32 AM

...

Do make sure that in the right pane in the Plugins tab that the 3 HighResTexturePack plugins are unchecked. In the Archives tab make sure "Have MO manage archives" is checked, and the 3 Unmanaged HighResTexturePack BSAs should not be checked.

I hadn't thought to look at the Archives tab; all of the original HRDLCs were checked. I unchecked the three of them and restarted MO - the optimized Dawnguard and Dragonborn folders are now overwriting their unoptimized originals (Hearthfire_Optimized still shows as redundant). Many thanks for all the information and patient help. This is a great community.


Edited by shiningfury, 07 February 2015 - 07:32 AM.

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#314 Kelmych

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Posted 07 February 2015 - 04:19 PM

In the process of researching this problem I realized that the vanilla optimization process can be simplified. In addition to textures at higher resolution than those in the Skyrim - textures and the 3 DLC BSAs, the HRDLC contains duplicate copies of all the textures in the DLC that are are actually useful to optimize. If these textures are left in the extracted HRDLC and optimized, there is no need to extract the DLC BSAs and optimize the associated textures at all. The guide will be changed to do this.

 

Those who have already optimized all the vanilla textures can do the following if they desire:

In the Dawnguard textures optimized folder in the <code>Mod Organizer\mods</code> folder, copy the <code>textures\dlc01</code> folder to the <code>textures</code> folder in the HRDLC2 optimized textures folder, skipping any files that have the same name. This will add some textures to the <code>textures\dlc01</code> folder in HRDLC2.

In the Dragonborn textures optimized folder in the <code>Mod Organizer\mods</code> folder, copy the <code>textures\dlc02</code> folder to the <code>textures</code> folder in the HRDLC3 optimized textures folder, skipping any files that have the same name. This will add some textures to the <code>textures\dlc02</code> folder in HRDLC3.

 

The Dawnguard textures optimized, Hearthfires textures optimized, and Dragonborn textures optimized folders can then be removed/deleted from the <code>Mod Organizer\mods</code> folder. They are no longer needed.

 

Doing these steps should also fix the problems that junglejudas reported.



#315 Musinginspace

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Posted 26 February 2015 - 12:40 PM

I don't know if this is the place for suggestions but hot hard would it be to add a search to find the mods on M.O. Having quite a number of them can be a daunting task scrolling trying to find them.


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