52 replies to this topic

[Kuldebar]

Test Subject: Hert  Vampire NPC of Half-Moon Mill  (coc halfmoonmill)

 

OK, this is a clean save game made with only official game files no mod esp's or textures installed under test profile in Mod Organizer:

 

 

Now, here is the same clean save with all the Unofficial Patches installed and correctly sorted:

 

This irritates me to no end!

 

I spent 1-2 hours combing through face and body mods and combinations and overrides trying to figure out WTF was happening. I don't play vampire characters so my body/face mods are just for better detail, nudity etc.

So, in my previous games, running into vampires in dark dungeons and caves, I probably never even noticed this issue, but in the daylight with all my higher texture mods enabled, the mismatch is even more noticeable than what is shown in the screen shot above.

 

Anyway, I found out the Unofficial Patch files are introducing this mismatch in the Hert NPC, but I have no real way to ascertain if it is with all vampires, females and/or males and so forth.

 

Any one have any ideas or suggestions? Or a fix?

Edited by Kuldebar, 25 March 2014 - 03:49 AM.

[EssArrBee]

Leave all the UPPs installed and toggle only the UDGP to see if it from the changes that dawnguard made to the vampire races. This will help narrow it down.

[rootsrat]

I can confirm some of the Unofficial Patches add tint layers to vampire NPC records. My investigation proved that it is Creation Kit that adds these "wild edits" when an ESP file is saved, as there were quite a few other mods that changed the same tint layers - I can't remember which ones actually, but I did contact couple of authors and after a short collaboration this was the conclusion. 

[Kuldebar]

Leave all the UPPs installed and toggle only the UDGP to see if it from the changes that dawnguard made to the vampire races. This will help narrow it down.

 

I can confirm some of the Unofficial Patches add tint layers to vampire NPC records. My investigation proved that it is Creation Kit that adds these "wild edits" when an ESP file is saved, as there were quite a few other mods that changed the same tint layers - I can't remember which ones actually, but I did contact couple of authors and after a short collaboration this was the conclusion. 

Yes, BOTH UDGP and USP edit Tints (same values) ...removing them from their respective esp doesn't fix the problem either...it appears there is FaceGen data in the folders for the patches as well but I don't know what's applicable.

In MO I can disable the ESP for the patches but the problem will persist if the patch folders are still checked in the left MO pane. :(

 

Grrrrr....

Edited by Kuldebar, 24 March 2014 - 02:13 PM.

[EssArrBee]

I don't body mods overwrite this? Or does the tint layers from the esp still apply this over players with a separate body mod? I have a feeling that I'm going to have to fix this in the patches, but I really don't want to do that myself. It just seems like I shouldn't have to fix a fix.

[Kuldebar]

I never had any mods that change vampires from default, any suggestions? Also, because the USP/UDGP edits are NPC specific...doesn't that throw a big wrench into a blanket solution to fix it? I mean, you'd have to do a Vampire NPC Overhaul or something :(
 
Well, according to Arthmoor, my problem shouldn't be happening:
 
 

Arthmoor 
The data changed in the tint layers is irrelevant. That's the CK being the CK, and no amount of us removing those will prevent it from returning again the very next time it's saved. It goes with the territory so we don't bother trying to remove it.

Grey face bugs are due to bad or missing facegen data. PrinceShroob went to very great lengths over a few different updates to make sure EVERYTHING on these NPCs was right. If you have the USKP and UDGP in the proper orders with the vanilla game and DLC then these issues should not be possible unless other mods are causing the information to get reverted and become mismatched with the facegen again.

 

 

Arthmoor
That's not an MO screen is it? You didn't let it treat this stuff as loose files or something did you? Or let it break the BSA ordering?

 
 
Unofficial Patches are loaded in correct order and first mod slots at top on both panes of MO...


/sigh

Edited by Greg, 22 July 2015 - 12:03 PM.
Corrected bbcode

[Kuldebar]

Solved!
 

The USKP has a facegen file for her, which is intentional to fix bugs on the vanilla side. Dawnguard.bsa contains another, which will be loading after the USKP when your files are in the correct order. The UDGP *DOES NOT* contain a copy of her facegen data. We took that out after the reorganization changed the load ordering on the patches.

You are going to need to go through your Data folder very carefully (your real one btw, not the voodoo one MO creates) and make sure you don't have a lurking copy of meshesactorscharacterFaceGenDataFaceGeomSkyrim.esm001367C.NIF or texturesactorscharacterFaceGenDataFaceTintSkyrim.esm001367C.dds sitting in there.

Barring that, if this ends up being some kind of crazy thing MO did, I'm not gonna be a happy lizard.

 
So, I looked, and those two files were indeed present...they are still in the current version of the USP from Nexus.
 
My reply to Arthmoor:

OK, my USP folders contain both the mesh and texture in the folders you mentioned in your post:

(slash marks omitted)

"C: Mod Organizer mods Unofficial Skyrim Patch textures actors character facegendata facetint skyrim.esm 0001367c.dds"

and:

"C: Mod Organizer mods Unofficial Skyrim Patch meshes actors character facegendata facegeom skyrim.esm 0001367c.nif"

What's really weird, is that I just downloaded and reinstalled from Nexus both USP and UDGP versions 2.03 after completely deleting the files I had on hand.

The mesh and texture are in the Nexus file download.

So, using MO, (proudly using MO!) I used the "hide" function on the mesh and texture that caused the problem:
"C:Mod OrganizermodsUnofficial Skyrim Patchmeshesactorscharacterfacegendatafacegeomskyrim.esm0001367c.nif"
"C:Mod OrganizermodsUnofficial Skyrim Patchtexturesactorscharacterfacegendatafacetintskyrim.esm0001367c.dds"

[z929669]

Arthmoor has told me also that NPC tint masks get mysteriously altered by the CK upon save (same for object bounds in some cases). I always assume taht the facegen data was also written by the CK. So the files could still be present ... no? (I am honestly not sure).

 

I am reading that the USkP contains these references (and files) intentionally to fix vanilla for those not running the DLC. For those running the DLC, the DLC contains (I assume) the analog to the USkP fix. Therefore, I expect the files to be present, but they whould be from the USkP if not running the DLC or from the DLC if running it.

 

What exactly is the install order of your mods in the left pane and the plugin load order on the right? Are BSAs checked or are they extracted? Have you played around with checking or unchecking the BSAs or forcing MO to prioritize according to the Bethesda standards to eliminate the possibility that MO is the issue?

[Kuldebar]

It's illustrated above, but here:

 

 

Like I said, the tint edits weren't causing this issue, as I actually deleted them at one point in the ESP to see if the problem changed...it did not.

 

The particular mesh and textures facegen files in the BSA were the unambiguous, unequivocal cause of the problem with my game. It was not a file conflicted, just bad files. I can bring the problem back any time I want by un-hiding the two files.

 

This can be done in a completely unmodded game with only official updates and unofficial patches installed.

[fireundubh]

Don't tell Arthmoor you're using MO. He hates MO.

[Kuldebar]

Don't tell Arthmoor you're using MO. He hates MO.

So does the MO Dev, apparently...the spiked luddite Kool-Aid is being passed around imo.

[Kelmych]

I'm a little confused by this discussion. Arthmoor's comment was that if Dawnguard is present and MO isn't used, Skyrim will use the mesh (0001367c.nif) and texture (0001367c.dds) from Dawnguard.esm (and not ones from the USKP BSA) for this character since the dawnguard.esm plugin loads after the USKP plugin. Since dawnguard.esm and Dawnguard.bsa are already in the Data folder, I don't understand how MO can provide this same behavior. How does MO provide the USKP BSA to Skyrim in a way that resources in the Dawnguard (and other DLC) BSAs are used when there is a conflict with the USKP? If I understand correctly how MO works (which I certainly might not), all of the BSAs in the Data folder effectively have lower "priority" than the BSAs (and of course loose file resources) provided by MO.

 

This thread is currently marked solved, but the solution required expanding the USKP BSA and hiding the mesh and texture. The effect of doing this is that the mesh and texture from Dawnguard.bsa is used. There doesn't seem to be any way with MO, if I understand correctly, to keep the USKP as a BSA and still get the correct mesh and texture in this particular unusual situation. If so, isn't that the point that Arthmoor is making?

[EssArrBee]

That is a valid concern with the way that BSAs load from the time that the UPPs switched to false flagged esms to load in a better order. You know it would be nice if we could have Legendary Edition plugin. I know that they are against it for a few good reasons, but why can't we get both?

[Kelmych]

I also wonder whether MO could achieve the same behavior as vanilla Skyrim by using the USP plugins but unchecking each associated BSA in the Archive tab. I realize that this is generally undesirable, but it might cause the USP BSAs to load the way the USP team expects (i'm not sure about this, an MO expert would need to confirm). Of course, doing this would reintroduce the problem with how optimized vanilla textures are installed and loaded  .

[DoubleYou]

I was actually wondering if something like this would turn up. This would indicate that either we would have to uncheck the Unofficial Skyrim Patch BSAs, or we would need to install the DLC as a mod through Mod Organizer.