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SOLVED: Unofficial Skyrim Patches breaking Vampire Body/Face Textures


Best Answer z929669 , 23 May 2014 - 09:05 PM

@Kelmych

NICE, you have resolved the issue I think.

 

If one does not have the DLC, then one will get the USkP changes, regardless of using MO or not.

 

However, if one DOES have the DLC, then the USkP verion is incorrect (it must be different than the DG fix), and it persists for MO users following the MO protocol, and you get the issue. Hiding the USkP assets allows the DLC content to shine through, right!?

 

I am anxious for Kludebar to comment at this point. I don't have time to verify, and I think that as the issue invoker, he needs to rule out this seeming probability.

 

Very nice. I have been looking for a good example to corroborate what Arthmoor et al have been arguing and validate the concern that there are use cases where the elegance of MO standards could break things unless we either inform the user or add in some contingencies.

 

EDIT: I have the same issue regarding prioritization, so if someone can direct me where I can find the NPC in question, I will check.

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#16 EssArrBee

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Posted 23 May 2014 - 06:53 PM

I'm a little confused by this discussion. Arthmoor's comment was that if Dawnguard is present and MO isn't used, Skyrim will use the mesh (0001367c.nif) and texture (0001367c.dds) from Dawnguard.esm (and not ones from the USKP BSA) for this character since the dawnguard.esm plugin loads after the USKP plugin. Since dawnguard.esm and Dawnguard.bsa are already in the Data folder, I don't understand how MO can provide this same behavior. How does MO provide the USKP BSA to Skyrim in a way that resources in the Dawnguard (and other DLC) BSAs are used when there is a conflict with the USKP? If I understand correctly how MO works (which I certainly might not), all of the BSAs in the Data folder effectively have lower "priority" than the BSAs (and of course loose file resources) provided by MO.

Even with the comment he made, does that mean that the error is there for users that don't have Dawnguard? What if you use only the regular game and install USKP? You are just stuck with the bad facegen data or is that it is actually okay with vanilla Skyrim and not okay with Dawnguard? That is just as confusing as some of the BSA ordering.



#17 Kelmych

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Posted 23 May 2014 - 06:57 PM

The way I read Arthmoor's comment was that the USKP fixed a problem for this NPC if Dawnguard wasn't in use, but if Dawnguard is used then a different fix is needed (presumably because Dawnguard alters characteristics of vampires) and that fix is in the Dawnguard BSA.



#18 z929669

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Posted 23 May 2014 - 09:05 PM   Best Answer

@Kelmych

NICE, you have resolved the issue I think.

 

If one does not have the DLC, then one will get the USkP changes, regardless of using MO or not.

 

However, if one DOES have the DLC, then the USkP verion is incorrect (it must be different than the DG fix), and it persists for MO users following the MO protocol, and you get the issue. Hiding the USkP assets allows the DLC content to shine through, right!?

 

I am anxious for Kludebar to comment at this point. I don't have time to verify, and I think that as the issue invoker, he needs to rule out this seeming probability.

 

Very nice. I have been looking for a good example to corroborate what Arthmoor et al have been arguing and validate the concern that there are use cases where the elegance of MO standards could break things unless we either inform the user or add in some contingencies.

 

EDIT: I have the same issue regarding prioritization, so if someone can direct me where I can find the NPC in question, I will check.



#19 z929669

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Posted 23 May 2014 - 11:26 PM

Confirmed.

 

I just loaded up my game that had USkP BSA unpacked and had the same issue with that NPC (coc halfmoonmill). I reinstalled the USkp with BSA intact, and tada! problem resolved.

 

Arthmoor et al indeed make a valid pint, and I would point Tannin and others to this incident as an example of what can happen when MO deviates from standards. This can be avoided in two ways:

  • Don't unpack BSAs without understanding the ramifications first ... and fixing problems yourself
  • Allow the DLC the same prioritization as other plugins (i.e., just because they reside in the data folder does not mean they should be treated differently than other plugin-loaded BSAs ... the DLC should be treated just like the other plugin-loaded BSAs.

Without conceiving every other possible use case, it is difficult to say what unique variations MO prioritization and BSA extraction can cause, so it is best for MO to stick to the Bethesda standards as default but allow users to deviate optionally.



#20 Kuldebar

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Posted 23 May 2014 - 11:33 PM

Muddled water...but explains my results. A BSA packed and unpacked in the correct order should be "electrically" the same...obviously it appears to not be the case.


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#21 Kuldebar

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Posted 23 May 2014 - 11:58 PM

z929669, on 23 May 2014 - 9:37 PM, said:

@Kelmych

Yeah, I get it, but was pointing out the need to be semantically explicit in our postings. SRB's post could be taken a couple of ways, and it was confusing how he worded it.

 

On another note and related to SRBs post just before this one, there is a significant issue with how MO and BSA extraction can subvert basic fixes provided by the USPs, which means that this can and likely IS happening elsewhere. This needs to be addressed and acknowledged by all that use MO. It is not really an inherent problem, but it is a reality that would not otherwise exist were it not for MO's ability to extract BSAs AND to treat DLC BSAs differently than others.

 

I have verified the issue, and Kludebar should chime in at this point to confirm so that we can amend the misinformation floating around.

I think you're onto something. I had my UKP's loaded in the approved order but unpacked with the ESP's enabled though...the behavior did not seem logical or predictable to me and TBH, Arthmoor wasn't very helpful in explaining what I was doing wrong...if anything. In fact, I still don't see how an unpacked BSA in the correct order is any different than an intact BSA...with respective ESP's  enabled.


Edited by Kuldebar, 23 May 2014 - 11:58 PM.

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#22 z929669

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Posted 24 May 2014 - 12:07 AM

The key point is that the unpacked and the packed BSA behave the same in MO (if it is also checked in Archives Tab); however, the DLC BSAs behave differently in MO (they are in [font="'courier new', courier, monospace;"]<skyrim>/Data/[/font] which Tannin and DY said is treated specially ... see OP). Under Bethsoft standards, all plugin-loaded BSAs are treated equally always.

 

Unpacked USkP overrides DB assets in MO, but packed BSA does not, since it will follow the plugin load order (remember, DG DLC plugin loads after USkP, so it should technically override, AFAIK)...

 

Arthmoor may not always be that helpful or even diplomatic, but he knows what he is talking about in my XP, and I would not disagree with him outside of a PM unless I was the expert in the subject matter :;): ... anyway, water under the bridge. We all make mistakes (jeez, I had the same problem as you in my own setup!)



#23 Kuldebar

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Posted 24 May 2014 - 12:12 AM

z929669, on 23 May 2014 - 10:07 PM, said:

 

Arthmoor may not always be that helpful or even diplomatic, but he knows what he is talking about in my XP, and I would not disagree with him outside of a PM unless I was the expert in the subject matter :;):

So, we all should be using wrye bash to install our mods, got you.

 

It's clear as mud actually. Again if BSA's were off the table or operated like regular files, such silliness would be a non-issue for us to sort out. The whole feckin point for me to extract the BSA was to ensure that right where I plopped it in my load order was where it would be...yet it appears there are shenanigans and subversive crap going on unbeknownst to me.

 

On reflection, it's really about cheap tricks of interacting UKP ESP files. If they are doing this sort of thing they should be merged...because they sure as hell aren't acting as standalones.


Edited by Kuldebar, 24 May 2014 - 12:14 AM.

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#24 z929669

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Posted 24 May 2014 - 12:18 AM

Yes, and you can blame Bethesda for that. We are all modding around it, and it is MUCH better now than it was back in Morrowind or Oblivion days (sorry I never got into Fallout series). A standard is a standard, and MO has a way around it. I am pretty happy about that, but in the meantime, let's give credit where credit is due and acknowledge facts apart from emotions.

 

Arthmoor was right, even if he did not know the specifics. Now we know the specifics, and MO (and its users) can benefit from that :thumbsup:



#25 Kuldebar

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Posted 24 May 2014 - 12:22 AM

If I installed the USKPs again but without extraction, the NPC in Half Moon Mill would be fine?


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#26 z929669

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Posted 24 May 2014 - 12:26 AM

Yes, that fixed the issue for me. Otherwise, you could also unpack the DG BSA as long as you place it after the USkP in the Mod priority (this way we are effectively moving prioritization with respect to the DLC to the Mod priority rather than the Plugin priority). That would be a good confirmation in fact.



#27 fireundubh

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Posted 24 May 2014 - 01:37 AM

You could move the DLC into their own mod folders and manage them like a boss a.k.a. me.

Edited by fireundubh, 24 May 2014 - 01:39 AM.

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#28 Kelmych

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Posted 24 May 2014 - 02:23 AM

There are several possible solutions, but all of them have at least some side effects. As you and DoubleYou mention, we could put the DLC in a new mod. Make a copy of each DLC esm plugin and BSA and put each in a new DLC mod (one for each DLC) that can then be managed by MO. It takes a little more storage space since there is an additional copy of each DLC esm and BSA.

 

If optimized vanilla textures are used then the only way they could be installed in the correct order is to put them in a BSA and then either replace the current Skyrim - textures.bsa with this BSA or put the BSA in Data and add the new BSA name to Skyrim.ini (register the BSA) so Skyrim will use it's resources instead of the ones in Skyrim - textures.bsa.



#29 Kuldebar

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Posted 24 May 2014 - 02:29 AM

OK, my free balling days are over, I shall now join the collective and no longer extract BSA's. Unfortunately MO now insists on extracting them so I have to manually install them. I don't see an option to turn off the evil, twisted and malign feature. I can hear the Lizard laughing maniacally already!


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#30 fireundubh

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Posted 24 May 2014 - 03:20 AM

Make a copy of each DLC esm plugin and BSA and put each in a new DLC mod (one for each DLC) that can then be managed by MO. It takes a little more storage space since there is an additional copy of each DLC esm and BSA.

Why copy them? Just move them and turn off automatic update in Steam.  

Unfortunately MO now insists on extracting them so I have to manually install them. I don't see an option to turn off the evil, twisted and malign feature. I can hear the Lizard laughing maniacally already!

Check the .ini in the MO folder.
[DialogChoices]unpackBSA=65536

Edited by fireundubh, 24 May 2014 - 04:14 AM.

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