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#16 stoppingby4now

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 08:17 PM

I agree with you on the interactive part. At some point though, a wiki becomes less ideal. It wasn't designed to be dynamic, and in turn lacks the ability to have anything but the most basic logic. Nor do you want that in a wiki. Their power comes from caching pages to eliminate expensive database lookups. JavaScript is really the only avenue at that point, allowing manipulation of displayed content with data that is delivered with the page. I've felt this way awhile now, but it's almost time to think about an in-house solution, or specifically something that provides more power than a wiki for complex setups.
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#17 hishutup

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 08:43 PM

hmm, glad I am not crazy about how the wiki is good for simple information but not complex things...

 

Doesn't html have a button tag already?

 

how hard would it be to implement what I previously described without the restriction of not using javascript?

 

how hard would it be for you to implement logic for what I had described, as an in-house solution? 

 

I guess I'll let you know if I have anymore crazy ideas...


Edited by hishutup, 15 September 2014 - 08:44 PM.

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#18 stoppingby4now

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 10:17 PM

html 5 includes a new button tag, and there is still the input tag. They won't do anything, however, as the tags will be scrubbed by MW.

 

I don't see it as being an easy task to implement what you are wanting. A selection of n choices, with the potential for a resultant set of instructions that don't have a direct mapping to those choices. That leans to needing javascript that is coded specifically to your case. How would one go about embedding anything in the page that would provide the means for determining what text should show when the choices and results may not directly map? If the choices directly mapped to the result, this becomes much easier to implement, though still not without a little bit of headache.

 

Things like this take me back to the Data Dictionary I created. The goal was to provide an easy means of entering data via Semantic Forms which is great for ensuring consistency in presentation, while allowing for management of "blocks of information". That means, that I only wanted to have to edit a form table, or a template table, without having to edit the whole bloody page. I succeeded in that task, but the implementation is rather ugly and hackish since the implementation is somewhat out of the bounds of what Semantic MediaWiki was made to handle. It required the use of sub-pages, which I don't like, I think 9 different templates, and three forms if I recall. The whole setup can be hard to follow, even for me.

 

I'll caveat this all with I'm pretty sure I understand what you are wanting to accomplish, but there is still the chance that I don't fully understand and that it isn't as complex as I currently believe it to be. I'll re-read through things again when I get a chance and work on ensuring I believe I understand 100% of this. For now, I have to prepare for a maintenance schedule for work tonight.


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#19 hishutup

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 10:42 PM

hmm...

1st part: I figured as much

 

2nd part: Even if it was difficult to implement, as long as it is readable from the source/edit side of things, it should be manageable. Like the collapsable tables and tables in generally can be pretty confusing especially how colspan and rowspan are handled. It can turn into a complete mess. I remember retyping the Animated Window Lighting System Wizard installer a few times because I kept getting lost. 

Meh, trial, error and suggestions will help buff out the issues with the system that is presented.

 

3rd part: I took a look at that and thats kinda how I figured it would be. i took a brief look at the many different pages and found it to be an absurd system, plus I got lost in one of the many pages. 

Hackish isn't bad, its making something do something else that it was never intended to do. Isn't that what a one definition of hack is.

 

I'll put together a page with what I think will work and all the different variants. That being said, I did say think because I am unsure of the future.

 

I may put the page together in a few hours or tomorrow... I have to go dive into some special symbols/ pictures for check boxes and what not..


Edited by hishutup, 15 September 2014 - 10:43 PM.

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#20 hishutup

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Posted 15 September 2014 - 11:17 PM

Heres my temp page to take a peak at... It has an early mock up of what my idea is like and the different circumstances.

https://wiki.step-pr...shutup/TempPage

I'll fix the format soon so it's easier to read and understand

 

EDIT: okay... I think I fixed/ finished the mock up.

But I can already see some problems with my format but nothing outside of fixable...


Edited by hishutup, 15 September 2014 - 11:51 PM.

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#21 z929669

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 09:21 PM

What I am hearing is the desire for functionality akin to drill-down reporting (diving into a data structure at multiple, analogous levels), but users will "drill down" into information that pertains to a set of ordered, inter-dependent choices. Another way to do it is to "pop up" rather than drill down. This may come with more options.

 

SMW probably can do this sort of thing, I think, but it would be a chore.

 

Regardless of what is used, the first step is to construct a reference table mapping the patch-relevant inter-dependencies and whether they are explicit or implicit. (This is "Pack" level info and could be Sematically attached to Pack pages). Then parser functions could be used to guide the logic (e.g., #ifeq), and popup Semantic Forms could be used (we used them briefly in the Pack Forms). We would need to store relationships in a meaningful way, so that all relationships are as directly implicit as possible (that sounds oxymoronic, I know)

 

I think that there is value in this sort of functionality, such that we could apply to the STEP Guides, too.

 

Also, check this out ... I did not delve deeply, but it seems like this could share a lineage with SMW popup forms.



#22 hishutup

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 09:32 PM

hmm.. I remember seeing parser functions

I think it would be easy if each was assigned a binary digit meaning:

Posted Image   Roads of Cyrodiil = +1

Posted Image   Let the People Drink =+2

Posted Image   Unique Landscape Compilation =+4

and then using... let me try it out first before getting ahead of myself

 

BUT..

The whole pop up thing you showed wouldn't work for my idea but could be used elsewhere


Edited by hishutup, 16 September 2014 - 10:18 PM.

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#23 hishutup

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 09:55 PM

This is getting close...

Okay now how would I make a Toggle-able button add to a variable or do nothing because

If button is toggled Posted Image then it add the respective number and when its not selected Posted Image it doesn't add a number

{{#switch: Variable | 1 = Patches not needed ROC only | 3 = '''Check'''00 ROC +Let the People Drink | 5 = '''Check'''00 ROC +UL Imperial Isle<br>'''Check'''00 ROC +UL Skingrad Outskirts | 7 = '''Check'''00 ROC +UL Skingrad Outskirts<br>'''Check'''00 ROC +UL Imperial Isle +Let the People Drink | DO NOT USE, ROC Not installed}}

The default is when there is an error or when the main mod "Roads of Cyrodil" is unchecked. 

Since, "Roads of Cyrodil" = 1 when checked all the possible different results is going to be odd.

 

Ill keep looking for some way to set a variable but I have no idea how to make a button toggle-able since the HTML tag doesn't work on the wiki

 

The above code would be added under the install section for "Roads of Cyrodil Patches"

Play with the variable number using the code above or here

 

EDIT: thank you Z for bringing Parser functions up


Edited by hishutup, 16 September 2014 - 09:56 PM.

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#24 z929669

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 10:04 PM

Actually, Semantic popups could be used to get the result you want, if not in the exact format you want. As s4n noted previously, we will not implement any dependencies for sandbox solutions.

 

I do see the usefullness of drill-down guides, and using popups with links to other pages inside with still other popups to 'Drill' into is something that SMW can do (but there may be some browser compat issues). This is why I am posing the idea here, since creating a custom solution for all guides that is not wiki based (e.g., using Drupal), is a major undertaking in order to get even close to what we have here now. The wiki may not be ideal for fancy navigation, I just don't see STEP without a wiki where users can easily help out and contribute



#25 hishutup

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 10:06 PM

ah figured out variables now the code can be

{{#vardefine:ROCPatch|0}}

 at the top of the page and 

 

Posted Image   Roads of Cyrodiil

{{#vardefine:ROCPatch|{{#expr:{{#var:ROCPatch}}+1}}}}

Posted Image   Let the People Drink

{{#vardefine:ROCPatch|{{#expr:{{#var:ROCPatch}}+2}}}}

Posted Image   Unique Landscape Compilation 

{{#vardefine:ROCPatch|{{#expr:{{#var:ROCPatch}}+4}}}}

Now to figure out how to toggle between +X and +0 when check or unchecked respectfully

 

EDIT: I took another look at popup Semantic Forms and I see a button but I don't under stand how that help but you seem to. How would I have that change variable and possibly instead of text, the button could have an image for checked and unchecked

The logic part I can get behind but all the other stuff goes over my head, just a little...

 

EDIT 2: huh, I think I understand, not really...

I would have to create my own form and then only really have the button and the function it preforms? I'll create on an play with it but I don't normally see any user playing with this page. If I free to create one then I'll give it a poke.

https://wiki.step-pr.../Special:FormsĀ 


Edited by hishutup, 16 September 2014 - 11:22 PM.

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#26 stoppingby4now

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 11:08 PM

SMW is great at making associations. It's what it was designed for. The problems with implementations are when associations are attempted that have no consistency. Even given a number based solution, who is to say that your 1,2 & 4 selections will produce the same result as someone else's. That is when it becomes specific to a particular guide or pack or whatever. The parser functions won't help in this kind of scenario either on a generic level. This means authors will have to implement additional functionality themselves.
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#27 hishutup

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Posted 16 September 2014 - 11:32 PM

well because there are only 7 possible options... Toggled|Names       | Results ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 000 none                  (DO NOT USE, ROC Not installed) 001 ROC                   (Patches not needed ROC only) 010 LtPD                   (DO NOT USE, ROC Not installed) 011 ROC + LtPD         (Check00 ROC +Let the People Drink) 100 UL                      (DO NOT USE, ROC Not installed) 101 ROC + UL            (Check00 ROC +UL Imperial Isle<br>Check00 ROC +UL Skingrad Outskirts) 110 LtPD + UL         (DO NOT USE, ROC Not installed) 111 ROC + LtPD +UL  (Check00 ROC +UL Skingrad Outskirts<br>Check00 ROC +UL Imperial Isle +Let the People Drink) As you can see it can be simplified but when it really gets crazy is when there are 6+ options but it should be pretty easy to do there are only 63 different options. which can most likely be simplified to about 16 After thinking about it for awhile, directly modifying a variable is a bad idea... Indirect should work just fine. Downside is that every button would need its own boolean variable and there will have to be a formula to calculate the result which isn't hard, just more work EDIT: Is there not a direct way for me to do something like [[ToggleVar|Unchecked button text/image|Checked button text/image|Unchecked function|Checked function]] Thats really all I want. The logic can be done with Variables and switch functions I took another look at the pop up stuff... None of the buttons work correctly... They just look weird, I'm guessing something with js but idk... https://semantic-ui....nts/button.html


Edited by hishutup, 19 September 2014 - 08:45 PM.

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#28 phazer11

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 10:28 AM

Bumping for visibility.


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#29 DoubleYou

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 02:12 PM

[[ToggleVar|Unchecked button text/image|Checked button text/image|Unchecked function|Checked function]] is probably possible via a hacky method of using collapsed content, but a 3-way one where checkbox 1 does one thing and checkbox 2 does another thing and checkbox 1 and 2 does a completely other thing is impossible afaik.


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#30 hishutup

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Posted 20 September 2014 - 02:57 PM

how would I use such

That thing up there does nothing because it doesn't exist...


Edited by hishutup, 20 September 2014 - 02:57 PM.

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