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Microstuttering in 3rd person running/horseback riding on good rig

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#61 sheson

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 12:41 PM

I can confirm that with the vanilla game, no dlc, no mods, no skse, no enb, both with full screen or windowed mode, in third person, whenever the player character or camera (whichever comes first for the new cell) crosses a cell border together with a high value for fTreeLoadDistance=1000000 causes drop in fps. It seems like the game stops everything else for a brief moment to do something. If I had to hazard a guess it probably iterates over all 40k++ LOD trees over and over again.

 

It stands to reason the engine always does this loop and it only becomes really noticeable when there is a large amount of LOD trees to be processed. I did look at other ini settings but haven't discovered any that would change this behavior - slim chance. However, I only spent a couple hours on this problem.

Since I can reproduce this with just vanilla, I can conclude the cause of the problem has nothing to do with mods, scripts (AFAIK no papyrus script executes because camera crosses cell border) or size of textures etc.

There is no such effect when in first person. To me this fact alone points to something odd being done in the game engine. Also happens with version 1.8 btw

Tests done with i7 @ 4.5GHZ and NVIDIA 980ti. I am assuming hardware doesn't matter, but you never know - while very unlikely, maybe the odd thing is done in a driver/directx and doesn't halt everything else in other versions. Some testing with other hardware/drivers should be done.

Just to recap, the drop on fps and stutter is noticeable in a vanilla game with high settings and only fTreeLoadDistance changed to 1000000. The easiest way to test this is to stand near a 4 cell border intersection and pan camera around the player character. Cross the cell borders in first person and there is no stutter at all.

 

If it comes to tree LOD and DynDOLOD, currently one workaround is to completely disable tree LOD and use the ultra trees from DynDOLOD. (see Options\trees.ultra\ in the DynDOLOD archive) However, if the hybrid trees are too performance/memory hungry, the 2D billboards (LOD8 setting from ultra) can be used instead for LOD4 and then overall performance should be the same as with tree LOD. The downside currently is, that object LOD always fades - tree LOD switches. Also this method only supports vanilla trees because atm it requires manual work to create the 2D mesh versions. Also the 2D flat trees included are supposed to be used for LOD8/16 and the textures may appear too dark and coarse for LOD4. These are all things that would/can needed to be worked on to "solve" this problem.

There is the option to use tree LOD only for the same distance as LOD4 object LOD, and then add the 2D billboards to static object for LOD8 and LOD16. The problem with that is, that tree LOD always switches 4x4 cells, while LOD8 switches 8x8 cells, so I think there needs to be a bit of overlap. I will program this option into next version of DynDOLOD so people can try and test it.

Otherwise play in first person all the time or limit max LOD tree distance.


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#62 TirigonX

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 12:58 PM

Is it a typo or do you really mean fTreeLoadDistance=1000000 (1 million)? The ultra default is 75000.


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#63 sheson

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 03:08 PM

Is it a typo or do you really mean fTreeLoadDistance=1000000 (1 million)? The ultra default is 75000.

No. This is to show that there is a problem within the engine of the game.

However any value over 4096 * 100 should not make a difference anymore.


Edited by sheson, 22 October 2015 - 03:09 PM.

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#64 darkside

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 03:42 PM

Sheson, Thank you very much for looking into this.
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#65 soupdragon

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Posted 05 November 2015 - 06:34 PM

I can hear my SSD working really hard when I am crossing a border and whenever a stutter happens, the SSD's noise will actually stutter as well for half a second.

 

I have now re-enabled it and put in on a different drive (I heard its better to have the pagefile on another drive) and again it has not made any difference, I still hear heavy reading noise from my SSD and the chugging when a stutter happens.

 

Sorry I realise this is an old topic but this is very odd... you can hear your SSD? Chugging? SSD's are solid state devices and do not make noise, at least not in my experience and I've owned/fitted 3 of them.

 

There is benchmarking software where you can measure the read/write of your SSD's and other drivers, 500/250 mb/s should be typical in this instance.


Edited by soupdragon, 05 November 2015 - 06:38 PM.

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#66 Jazz6500

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Posted 01 March 2016 - 10:19 AM

Sorry I realise this is an old topic but this is very odd... you can hear your SSD? Chugging? SSD's are solid state devices and do not make noise, at least not in my experience and I've owned/fitted 3 of them.
 
There is benchmarking software where you can measure the read/write of your SSD's and other drivers, 500/250 mb/s should be typical in this instance.



Hello! Ancient topic this is. However I am experiencing the same problem(s).
Regarding the SSD I believe I am hearing the CPU hissing not the SSD when ever I cross a border. My CPU is liquid cooled and does not go above 40C at full load gaming!

I wonder what might ut be?
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#67 Jazz6500

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Posted 01 March 2016 - 10:27 AM

I am using STEP:EXTENDED 2.2.9, (EDIT: Now using a fresh install of STEP:EXTENDED 2.2.9.1 and stuttering still persists unless "Distant Object Detail" is set at High down from Ultra) have followed all instructions to the letter and used GamerPoet's Bash Patch, FNIS, DSR guide but I am having stuttering despite having a good rig. I am playing on a GTX 780 Ti which has 3GB VRAM, an i7 3770k at 4.5GHz, 8GB RAM, Windows 8.1 64 Bit(EDIT: Now on a GTX 980 Ti 6GB, 16GB RAM and Windows 10 pro 64 Bit) and when I tried using the 2k resolution textures for all the texture mods, I had massive stuttering/brief freezing when roaming outside on horseback. I had to reinstall everything a second time using the "Baseline" 1K or lower textures to reduce the stuttering which I STILL get every few seconds when on horseback outside.
Most of the "Baseline" Textures are aimed at people with 1GB to 2GB VRAM so why do the 2k Textures give me this problem with 3GB VRAM (EDIT: Now 6GB)? And as I said I still get stuttering every few seconds when outside on horseback especially, its just not as severe as when I used the 2k textures.
 
Meanwhile, I saw Gamespot's video where they used full 2K and up to 4k textures on almost EVERYTHING plus ENB preset with a GTX 780 and they get butter smooth gameplay without any stuttering. What could be going wrong? I followed all the instructions.
 
I make sure everytime I play a game that the ONLY programs running are Steam and the game itself. I always close all explorer windows and unnecessary processes beforehand. I am well aware of the craziness in Skyrim when going above 60 fps as I have a 120Hz monitor and it was not pretty when I played the game at over 100 fps average. I change my monitor's refresh rate to 60Hz everytime before playing Skyrim. I have the game installed on a Samsung EVO 840 250GB SSD. I had it on a fully defragmented Western Digital 7200 RPM hard drive before and frankly the only difference it has made is speed up loading screen time. The stutters I had before are still present so I doubt this is an I/O issue.
 
My CPU is watercooled and My GPU never exceeds 77 degrees when under full load. In Skyrim it does not even reach 74 degrees. My GPU usage is actually really low in the game, never exceeding 40%, however RAM usage seems right, I have seen it close to 2.8GB. I have Hyperthreading disabled when playing Skyrim and the load is spread across all 4 cores with core 1 having noticeably more load. I am using ENBoost and all the recommended settings found on the EnbLocal.ini guide on STEP guide. I am using Sheson's memory patch as recommended on STEP guide.
Now to the stutter itself. Inside cities and dungeons the game is SMOOTH and VRAM usage is the most. I have actually seen VRAM usage exceed 3.5GB inside dungeons with absolutely no stutter at all which surprises me. Once I go outside in 3rd person view/horseback and I start running, I am hit by microstuttering as soon as I cross borders. I closely monitored my GPU usage and VRAM usage and found that GPU usage is never more than 50% and VRAM usage is MUCH lower than inside dungeons. In First person the stuttering is almost nonexistant, even when I cross borders. As soon as I mount my horse/switch to third person view and start running, micro-stuttering starts. It's as if the game can't keep with the loading. My UGrids values are at the default, never messed with them. (EDIT: After enabling "tb" command, I can confirm that the stutters happen EXACTLY at cell border lines.)
Sometimes the microstuttering turns into actual mini freezes where the game just freezes for like 5 seconds then resumes as usual, though they were much more severe when I was using the 2K textures. Since downgrading to 1K textures the minifreezes are mostly gone, but they will still happen. I also noticed that as the stutters happen, I can clearly see things pop in the distance at the same time. Some areas where the stutter is very noticeable are the tundra outside Whiterun, the road from Helgen to Riverwood, the road from Whiterun to Falkreath and the intro carriage ride which gets really choppy just as Helgen becomes visible, almost like a mini-slideshow until the gate opens and the carriage enters Helgen.
 
I do not understand however why it happens when I have the game on an SSD, have a powerful GPU with 3GB VRAM (EDIT: Now 6GB VRAM) and have 8GB system RAM (EDIT: Now 16GB system RAM). I have done some digging and it seems as if it has something to do with cell loading stutter and increased I/O activity.
 
 
EDIT:
I have now done a fresh install of Skyrim and the full STEP:EXTENDED 2.2.9.1 modlist exclusively, with install instructions followed to the letter using Mod Organiser. The original Skyrim.ini and SkyrimPrefs.ini files located in MyDocuments are vanilla intact and the ini files I use are the Mod Organiser ones. In fact, my whole Skyrim install is pure Vanilla. Everything is done from Mod Organiser. I can play Vanilla Skyrim if i don't launch the game through Mod Organiser. It contains the original intact .esm files.
 
All the texture mods are the 2K variants. (EDIT: I have now downgraded every single 2K Texture Mod to 1K version after experiencing severe stuttering/mini freezes and stutter is STILL present, but less severe) STEP:EXTENDED Patch, Bashed Patch, Dual Sheath Redux Patch, FNIS Patch and Dyndolod steps have all been successfully completed and are working.
 
Nothing has changed. The stutters are still there even though I have made substantial hardware upgrades. Lowering "Distant Object Details" to High, ESPECIALLY fTreeLoadDistance is still the only "fix" that works, but one that I think I should not have to do. Some people are increasing those values to crazy high amounts to combat z-fighting  and getting smooth gameplay with lower end hardware. In this current state, I couldn't even think of doing that. I tried it and it DID get rid of z-fighting but the stutter was severe and the minifreeezes more frequent.
 
 
My Mod Load Order straight from Mod Organiser:


 
 
My Plugins Load Order straight from Mod organiser:

 
 
EDIT:
Skyrim performance Monitor logs:
Log1:
up301OQ.png
 
Log2:
FurOkCt.png
 
Log Download Links:
https://www.mediafir...Stutter Log.log
https://www.mediafir...utter Log 2.log
 
 
My Full Specs:
i7 3770k @ 4.5Ghz - Watercooled
EVGA GTX 780 Ti Classified Kingpin Edition - Watercooled(EDIT: Upgraded to a MSI GTX 980 Ti Gaming 6GB with latest Geforce Driver, problem persists)
8GB G-Skill Ripjaws X DDR3 RAM 1600Mhz(EDIT: Upgraded to 16GB RAM, problem persists)
Asus Sabertooth Z77 Motherboard
Samsung 850 EVO 250GB SSD(EDIT: Disabling pagefile/Moving Pagefile to another drive has not made any difference)
Corsair RM1000 1000Watt Power SupplyWindows 8.1 PRO 64 Bit
(EDIT: Upgraded to Windows 10 PRO 64 Bit, problem persists)
 
 
Similar 2015 Thread on Nexus forums. His system is almost identical to mine and he has the exact same issues:
https://forums.nexus...on-powerful-pc/
 
 
Thanks!





I am trying to revive this topic as I am facing the exact same problem with minor differences:

1. I run 2x gtx980ti
2. I run on Windows 7 and Windows 10.
3. On windows 10 my Skyrim runs at 165hz+ in vanilla.
4. On Windows 7 Vanilla skyrim barely makes 100Hz with the same hardware and .ini setup. From the same ssd drive.

What I am noticing is that in Win 7 my GPU SLI sync limit is on 0 though Sli is on!
Also gpu utilization is around 40-50% when gaming cod or skyrim vanilla.

I am sure it is NOT driver issue as I reinstalled drivers and Windows 7 multiple times.

Has Citizen been able to establish the root of the problem?
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#68 Rebel47

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Posted 01 March 2016 - 12:15 PM

Running any DX9 application or game on windows 8, 8.1 or 10 will only use a maximum of 4064 (Thank MS for that one)

 

As for the CPU hissing, do you in fact mean a high pitched whining noise, kind of like a kettle whistling but softer ?

 

The problem you are referring to is not hardware related in my experience but I and many other people have actually attributed this to the Hi Res DLC which causes so many problems in game (there are just personal experiences that others have seemingly shared)

Also for those who use XFire/SLI - Skyrim does not work very well with this feature enabled even if your drivers have adapted for it


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#69 Jazz6500

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Posted 02 March 2016 - 08:36 AM

Searching for Solution Update.

 

​So the hissing, kettlelike sound tends to be present in other games too except it is hidden behind fan noise most of the time.

The windows 7 seems to be a separate proble on its own as ALL my games stutter massively whilst GPU usage and CPU usage is under 50% WT!

 

Nevermind Windows 7 for now.

 

SKyrim Vanilla without ENB at its original settings but with the hi res DLC works butter smooth at 165hz+ in SLI!! Even at "speedmult 1000" I hardly get any stutter when crossing borders.

 

So we are looking for something that is ENB related anbd perhaps GTX 980 TI related ?!


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#70 Jazz6500

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Posted 02 March 2016 - 10:15 AM

Searching for solution update 2

 

Righty, so it IS the original ENB that is causing stutter!!

I have just tested Realvision ENB on Vanilla Skyrim and WOAH the performance is even smoother than vanilla!!

Unless of course it has something to do with the skyrimprefs.ini+ENB combination.


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#71 Agent_XXX

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Posted 30 March 2018 - 06:40 AM

Seems like this is a problem that CAN'T be fixed (engine issue).

 

I'm using 2k and some 4k textures, DynDOLOD medium, fTreeLoadDistance=50000.

 

The most areas are stutter free but the FPS goes down when crossing boarders (60FPS -> 50FPS).

Some borders make the game freeze for less than a second especially Falkreach with its lake and river also the road to Helgen gives you some sort of lags.

 

The game is installed on a Corsair Force 3 F60GB ("old" SSD, 2011) and it's sad to see other people with much faster SSD's getting the same result.

 

I tried Skyrim Vanilla with optimized Vanilla textures (Skyrim = 8,43GB) and fTreeLoadDistance=1000000 = horrible stuttering in Falkreach.

 

Would be nice if someone can share his results with a modded Skyrim + DynDOLOD on RAM disk + DDR4 or DDR3 at VERY HIGH clocks, +2400MHz and fast RAM timings!

 

I wouldn't be suprised if the game keeps stuttering like on a fast SSD.


Edited by Agent_XXX, 30 March 2018 - 06:41 AM.

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#72 soupdragon

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Posted 15 July 2018 - 06:54 AM

Searching for Solution Update.

 

​So the hissing, kettlelike sound tends to be present in other games too except it is hidden behind fan noise most of the time.

The windows 7 seems to be a separate proble on its own as ALL my games stutter massively whilst GPU usage and CPU usage is under 50% WT!

 

Nevermind Windows 7 for now.

 

SKyrim Vanilla without ENB at its original settings but with the hi res DLC works butter smooth at 165hz+ in SLI!! Even at "speedmult 1000" I hardly get any stutter when crossing borders.

 

So we are looking for something that is ENB related anbd perhaps GTX 980 TI related ?!

"Hiss" or "kettle" whistle sounds like coil whine, thats a gfx card issue. Especially if fps is unrestricted. I've had that myself and its not nice.

 

Seems like this is a problem that CAN'T be fixed (engine issue).

 

I'm using 2k and some 4k textures, DynDOLOD medium, fTreeLoadDistance=50000.

 

The most areas are stutter free but the FPS goes down when crossing boarders (60FPS -> 50FPS).

Some borders make the game freeze for less than a second especially Falkreach with its lake and river also the road to Helgen gives you some sort of lags.

 

The game is installed on a Corsair Force 3 F60GB ("old" SSD, 2011) and it's sad to see other people with much faster SSD's getting the same result.

 

I tried Skyrim Vanilla with optimized Vanilla textures (Skyrim = 8,43GB) and fTreeLoadDistance=1000000 = horrible stuttering in Falkreach.

 

Would be nice if someone can share his results with a modded Skyrim + DynDOLOD on RAM disk + DDR4 or DDR3 at VERY HIGH clocks, +2400MHz and fast RAM timings!

 

I wouldn't be suprised if the game keeps stuttering like on a fast SSD.

If you have SSE then aers' SSE engine fixes sounds like what you're looking for there is indeed an issue with LOD trees iterating it even occurs in 1st person mode in heavily forrested areas, it includes a fix.


Edited by soupdragon, 15 July 2018 - 07:01 AM.

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