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#16 ray0071

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Posted 08 August 2015 - 06:42 AM

Actually forget my question.  I am finding the installation process far too tedious.

I don't have the time or energy for this.  In my line of work, I go through so much data, pages and pages of spreadsheets - and just don't have the patience for what STEP requires.

 

I can see spending up to 3-6 hours, but in my view STEP requires far more.

Good gaming to the rest of you - if you managed to install STEP kudos to you.


Edited by ray0071, 08 August 2015 - 06:52 AM.

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#17 SynthetikHD

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Posted 08 August 2015 - 09:11 AM

Yes, sadly STEP is not the user friendly guide I desperately wish it was. Due to the lack of step-by-step instructions, it is only for those with an advanced knowledge of modding.

This is likely the guide you are looking for. But while it does have step-by-step instructions, a moderate to advanced knowledge of modding and the programs is still required.

 

As for time, it probably takes a minimum of 30 hours or so for a full installation if you somewhat know what you're doing.

 

If you are simply just wanting to mod Skyrim without investing lots of time and learning everything you need to know, just watch these videos. You'll have a much easier time.


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#18 TechAngel85

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Posted 08 August 2015 - 09:56 AM

I still am finding it odd that people think STEP is a hard and tedious process. If you have to have ALL the knowledge, perhaps. However, users can simple follow the Guide straight down the page and never leave it (besides to look a detailed instructions for the mods that require it...which are usually just instructions to install the FOMODs) to install STEP just fine and rather easily. You don't have to have any "advanced" knowledge. As long as you can follow instructions (which everyone learns in school), you can install STEP fairly easily and quickly. Downloading the mods it the most time consuming part.

 

Now if you branch off into the other guides which are linked, then yes, you can get into some advanced topics and more in-depth learning; however, those guides are there for the users that want that knowledge. They're not required to install STEP properly. You can also skip all the benchmarking stuff.



#19 ray0071

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Posted 08 August 2015 - 02:39 PM

I still am finding it odd that people think STEP is a hard and tedious process. If you have to have ALL the knowledge, perhaps. However, users can simple follow the Guide straight down the page and never leave it (besides to look a detailed instructions for the mods that require it...which are usually just instructions to install the FOMODs) to install STEP just fine and rather easily. You don't have to have any "advanced" knowledge. As long as you can follow instructions (which everyone learns in school), you can install STEP fairly easily and quickly. Downloading the mods it the most time consuming part.

 

Now if you branch off into the other guides which are linked, then yes, you can get into some advanced topics and more in-depth learning; however, those guides are there for the users that want that knowledge. They're not required to install STEP properly. You can also skip all the benchmarking stuff.

It is not odd - the instructions were written with the assumption that people know everything.  I agree with SynthetikHD, STEP is not friendly to modding newbies.  The places I found myself in trouble were ones where the guide assumes I know something which I did not.  Scouring the net trying to ensure I am doing the right thing is a tedious process.  If I do something without being certain then I run the risk of making a bigger problem for myself (something I have done repeatedly).  The time requirement to successfully go through the STEP guide is not small, and so imagine going through it and failing?

 

I would consider myself an above average intelligent person.  I do not suffer from ADD.  I know how to follow instructions better than most.  So if I have encountered difficulties then it is likely others have as well.  That does not mean the guide should be changed, but know that there are some people struggling with it.  

 

Here is what is really odd - I installed STEP successfully in the past (more than a year ago).  So why not now?


Edited by ray0071, 08 August 2015 - 02:50 PM.

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#20 TechAngel85

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Posted 08 August 2015 - 02:48 PM

Well, if some users truly feel this way, then they need to call out specifics so those areas can be addressed. We attempt to make it as noob friendly as possible and have only heard this complaint from a very tiny fraction of the users. However, those users have yet to give any helpful feedback, of course this would require them to actually try out the guide.

#21 Greg

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Posted 08 August 2015 - 03:11 PM

It is not odd - the instructions were written with the assumption that people know everything.  I agree with SynthetikHD, STEP is not friendly to modding newbies.  The places I found myself in trouble were ones where the guide assumes I know something which I did not.

Can you provide more specific information that can be used to improve the quality of the guide? Everyone here is open to constructive criticism, but it really helps to know which specific parts are confusing or need to provide more information.



#22 ray0071

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Posted 08 August 2015 - 03:12 PM

Well, if some users truly feel this way, then they need to call out specifics so those areas can be addressed. We attempt to make it as noob friendly as possible and have only heard this complaint from a very tiny fraction of the users. However, those users have yet to give any helpful feedback, of course this would require them to actually try out the guide.

You hear from people who believe they can actually complete the guide, because when they encounter a problem, they ask questions.  The ones like myself however, it is very likely they just give up and you never hear from them at all.  

 

You want helpful feedback?  Here is the best solution:

 

Create a video guide of the entire process - every single step. 


Edited by ray0071, 08 August 2015 - 03:15 PM.

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#23 TechAngel85

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Posted 08 August 2015 - 03:15 PM

That would be movie! Haha! However, gamerpoets has done several videos for STEP of the more complicated processes.

#24 ray0071

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Posted 08 August 2015 - 03:29 PM

That would be movie! Haha! However, gamerpoets has done several videos for STEP of the more complicated processes.

When I see a video link to a step - instant sigh of relief.

If there were videos for the entire guide - I would not be here to ask questions.


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#25 Greg

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Posted 08 August 2015 - 04:00 PM

The last time I setup STEP 2.2.9.1 from scratch, it took me about two hours and I already had 95% of the mods downloaded. I admit a video guide might be nice, but TechAngel85 is exactly right... it would be at least 3 and possibly 4 hours long.



#26 ray0071

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Posted 08 August 2015 - 04:16 PM

Based on my comments it is clear that I am not an experienced modder.  That the setup is taking long, and that I am encountering difficulties.

 

So I don't really understand the purpose of stating that it can be completed in 2 hours?  So what does it mean that it has taken me far far longer and I have yet to even pass the initial parts of the setup?  Sounds like a veiled insult - perhaps deservedly so.  Maybe I am getting too old and stupid.


Edited by ray0071, 08 August 2015 - 04:16 PM.

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#27 SynthetikHD

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Posted 08 August 2015 - 07:17 PM

First I'd like to say I am by no means bashing on the guide. And while I don't think it is as user friendly as I wish, that doesn't mean it is user unfriendly. Basically I wish it held your hand every step of the way.

 

A good example is the Witcher 2 guide I wrote. Someone that has never modded anything before could use it because I have given instructions for every mouse click, button press, etc.

 

For example...

 

For these instructions I could have just said, "Put the mod into the mod folder and disable the UI mod." But instead I listed everything that needs to be done.

I'm not saying STEP needs to be like this or a 4 hour video series needs to be made, but if every single step is documented and laid out, then there is no possibility of error or doubt for a new user.


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#28 GrantSP

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Posted 08 August 2015 - 07:42 PM

My two cents worth.

 

For every person that completes the guide without error there is next to no feedback from them because, why would there? On the other hand for every person that does have difficulties it is because of a misunderstanding of the description or the steps leading up to that process, everytime that happens the guide is examined and a revision of the wording is looked at. However, more often than not the wording is clear and the reader assumed something. Can the guide fix that? Maybe, and the STEP authors endeavour to do so.

STEP is a fluid guide, meaning it is always in a state of change which means new steps may need to examined in the light of previous ones and also how it reflects on later ones. Which brings us to videos. Everytime a new mod is included the whole section would need to be updated to reflect the change in order otherwise users will flood the forum with: "where does this go, the video doesn't mention it!" The steps involved with maintaining a working complete video guide would overwhelm the maintenance of the guide itself.

 

Then there is the thought that every detail needs to be outlined. Yes and no. Most steps involving mod installation are the same for numerous mods so once the user has done the first, the steps are repeated for similar mods. Where there is divergence from the standard, STEP provides notes and detailed instruction to reflect that, or it tries to.

 

Lastly the comments about length of time to complete. You will usually find that those that say it doesn't take too long are like @Greg that already have most of the mods downloaded. This is far and away the most time-consuming part of installation. After the downloads are sought, the steps to install again are significantly shorter.

 

Am I trying to dismiss user feedback about the complexity of the guide? No, simply highlighting the points that some slip up on are often not due to wording or instructions, but a sense of being overwhelmed with content. All feedback is appreciated and examined for action.



#29 SynthetikHD

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Posted 08 August 2015 - 08:10 PM

I agree with most of what you have said. I know most of you help with support and I am sure that you come across many people whose problems are due to incompetence rather than the fault of the guide authors.

 

The constant edits and changes to STEP is precisely the reason why making a video guide would have difficulties. However while I am not saying new users are entitled to a video guide, a simple work around for making a video guide feasible is to make a video guide for every 'major' STEP release, and just redo it or any parts for the next 'big' STEP release. For example if someone made a video guide for STEP 2.3.0, and only that version. Just a thought.

 

As for the idea of having every detail outlined:

Would this make the guide much longer? Yes.

Would there be a lot of redundancy in instructions? Yes.

However, would this eliminate almost all possibility for error, doubt, and confusion for all users? Definitely yes.

 

Just my thoughts and feedback.


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#30 ray0071

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Posted 08 August 2015 - 08:46 PM

I agree with most of what you have said. I know most of you help with support and I am sure that you come across many people whose problems are due to incompetence rather than the fault of the guide authors.

 

The constant edits and changes to STEP is precisely the reason why making a video guide would have difficulties. However while I am not saying new users are entitled to a video guide, a simple work around for making a video guide feasible is to make a video guide for every 'major' STEP release, and just redo it or any parts for the next 'big' STEP release. For example if someone made a video guide for STEP 2.3.0, and only that version. Just a thought.

 

As for the idea of having every detail outlined:

Would this make the guide much longer? Yes.

Would there be a lot of redundancy in instructions? Yes.

However, would this eliminate almost all possibility for error, doubt, and confusion for all users? Definitely yes.

 

Just my thoughts and feedback.

 

I think you offered excellent suggestions.  I understand people like me without extensive modding experience must be a pain because we can easily misunderstand something, always require more detail etc - but if the aim of STEP is to be accessible to everyone then a more detailed guide is necessary.  

 

I went back and thought to try this one more time.  Made some progress but on a number of occasions I assumed things, and whether or not that will come back to haunt me later - time will tell (my luck it probably will).  Let me give an example of the kinds of issues I run into:

 

 

 

Trade & Barter:  STEP Recommends: Download and install the Hearthfire version of the mod and activate the .esp, but do not click "start mod" in the MCM options.

I have no idea how to click 'start mod' in the MCM options.   Should I know?  Perhaps.  But I don't.  So I read the description in the mod itself - still not clear.  I google it - still not clear.  I search the guide for MCM it only shows up in one place (the step I am on now) - so still not clear.  What am I supposed to do at this point?  Probably there is a simple explanation, some silly oversight on my part maybe - but the bottom line is I am stuck and about to assume again in order to progress further.

 

I really do appreciate the work that has gone into this guide, and I am not upset with anyone for my inability to work through it.  

That said, would I appreciate if it was more detailed and thus less confusing?  Absolutely.  So much so that I would even pay for it (not kidding).


Edited by ray0071, 08 August 2015 - 08:52 PM.

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