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#31 TechAngel85

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Posted 08 August 2015 - 09:06 PM

Users have become accustom to the other guides around here that "hand-hold". This has been discussed on several occasions for STEP and it's simply not something that we're going to be doing with the Guide. Guides like Fear & Loathing and Skyrim Revisited, do this and is where most of the hand-holding comes into play. STEP assumes that users at least know how to use their mod manager and can install a mod without having to be told every single click they should be making throughout the process. So no, STEP is never going to tell users to:

  1. Download mod x's main file and optional file
  2. Double-click the downloaded main file for mod x in the download tab
  3. Click install.
  4. Now double-click the downloaded optional file for mod x in the download tab
  5. Click merge
  6. Done.

That is...to be blunt...ridiculous from a maintenance standpoint and is what I, personally, call "modding for dummies". This is the very basics of using a mod manager and STEP assumes users at least have an understanding of these basics. If users don't, then they need to read the Guide for their mod manager. However, support is always offered in the Support Threads. So yes, STEP assumes users know these basics. Where the instructions deviate from the basics, STEP provides detailed instructions. All the user has to do is click the link in the Guide to the right of the mod to view these instructions.

 

With that said and from Ray's example above, this doesn't seem to be the case of what is causing this issue with it being difficult for some users. In the example, I can see where it might be confusing to a user that has never modded the game and, thus, wouldn't know what MCM is. These types of things CAN be fixed with a bit more explanation. So...good example and feedback you gave there! :thumbsup:

 

To answer your question, MCM is the Mod Configuration Menu which is found only in-game when you hit Esc to bring up the menu. You'll see "Mod Configuration Menu" as one of the options (but not until you install the Interface section of STEP since one of the mods there adds this menu item). Basically, when you open the MCM in-game, you'll see a list of mods that are configurable. We are telling you in the instruction for Trade and Barter to NOT click the feature in this menu which activates or "starts" the mod. This is because we only want the base features of the mod to be present and not the entire feature-set of the mod.



#32 SynthetikHD

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Posted 08 August 2015 - 09:56 PM

What about the people that want to use STEP but lack the experience of modding to do so? You cannot tell someone that is new to modding to simply "read the manual" of MO and then expect them to flawlessly install 200+ mods.

 

Is there any way STEP can accommodate for these people that wish to use STEP but lack experience? I'm not saying STEP NEEDS to accommodate for these people. I have not suggested anything so far and have only said my thoughts. I'm just the new kid around here and I'm just curious on others' thoughts about this.

 

Do you just tell people that don't know what they are doing to read the manual and come back when they decide to learn the basics? Or do you simply send them away and say, "STEP isn't for you and you can't use it. You need to know what you are doing to use STEP."


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#33 darkside

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Posted 08 August 2015 - 10:38 PM

If you want to mod, there is no way around learning how to mod. Modding takes time, there is no way around that either.
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#34 GrantSP

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Posted 08 August 2015 - 10:39 PM

If I may use a motoring analogy? Many car owners may be able to change the oil, check tyre pressure, even replace a spark plug. Not everyone would be able to change an oil filter, adjust the timing or increase turbo boost, not to mention machining heads, upgrading camshafts or valves.

Without it sounding derogatory, many would-be STEP users are in fact imagining they can upgrade their camshaft when their skills revolve around changing oil.

Can it be done by a novice? Yes. On the first try without assistance? Unlikely. That's not the market for the guide.

Having said that, the STEP forums, not the guide, do offer those services and you will find very in-depth discussions on some very detailed modding techniques. So it is quite possible for the new modder to install STEP if they are willing to do a bit of forum searching to find the answers, and if they can't find them ask and be guided as best as they can be.



#35 TechAngel85

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Posted 08 August 2015 - 10:55 PM


Or do you simply send them away and say, "STEP isn't for you and you can't use it. You need to know what you are doing to use STEP."

We never do that. This is why our support threads exist; however, we do expect users to take the time to learn the tools they're using. STEP can be a way of doing that since users can learn as they go. We've taken countless hours of our time to develop good Guides on the various tools such as Mod Organizer so users can learn to use them. We can't accommodate lazy users because this is a vast community, but we will help them along the way. When a question or confusion pops up, search the forums to see if your question has already been answered and if not, post a support topic to get help in finding the answer.

 

Modding is not a step-by-step process. It's a skill that has to be learned. Many new users just expect to be able to install a bunch of random mods and expect their game to be golden, only to find coal at the end of the tunnel that is filled with crashes and stability issues. Modding is not plug-n-play like many users want it to be, unless the guide authors spell out every single step and click. The problems with this approach is very clear when you start to see those Guides get dated and haven't been updated in a while. The posts for those Guides start to fill up with support requests because a few mods have updated. Users can't figure out how to update to the new versions because the instructions haven't been laid out for them. These users have learned nothing from modding their games. They haven't learned how to mod, but rather have increased their skills at following directions. Darkside said this best above and his words are very true.

 

STEP is not a hand-holding experience. It's aim is an easy modding experience with a stable game as the end result. STEP is probably one of the easiest ways to learn to mod due to all the Guides we have and the support we give.



#36 ray0071

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Posted 08 August 2015 - 11:31 PM

Stuck again:

 

40px-MO_%2832%29.png25px-FileTree.png File Tree: If Clothing & Clutter Fixes is also used hide the following file:

scripts\WAF_ArmorSwapScript.pex

How does one 'hide' a file?  

 

Is hiding a file a feature of Mod Organizer?  - checked, but could find anything  on it.

Is it referring to an action specific to STEP? - checked, but could not find anything on it.

Does it just mean to change the name or put the file in a different folder? - no idea.

If it meant deleting the file - the guide would have said as much.  If it means changing the name, the guide would have simply said rename the file etc.

 

This is another example where the guide is not clear.  I don't think putting a little more detail constitutes hand holding. 

 

I don't want to 'push' on something you guys do not want to do.  It is your choice the degree of detail the guide provides.  That said, what are we really talking about here?  How much time?  Someone could go through the guide and make it more detailed in a matter of hours.  2 to 3 hours tops.  Tell you what - I will make it worth that person's while.  Time is money, so it would be a good trade - especially considering the amount of time it would save me.


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#37 TechAngel85

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Posted 08 August 2015 - 11:42 PM

It's a feature of MO and can be found here: https://wiki.step-pr...Mod_Information under "Filetree".

 

Double-click the installed mod (in the left pane) to open the Information box. You'll see the Filetree tab. Use the link above to see how to hide files.


Edit: I've updated the mod page with a link to the same information linked above.



#38 TechAngel85

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Posted 08 August 2015 - 11:55 PM

Added a link to the Trade and Barter mod page to a video explaining a bit about MCM. Just watch up to the 2 minute and 20 second mark.


Edit:

See what good feedback does! :;):



#39 SynthetikHD

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Posted 09 August 2015 - 12:21 AM

Added a link to the Trade and Barter mod page to a video explaining a bit about MCM. Just watch up to the 2 minute and 20 second mark.


Edit:

See what good feedback does! :;):

Nice work on responding to all the feedback. You can use this link, as it cuts off the video when he is done explaining the relevant part.

 

 

It is your choice the degree of detail the guide provides.  That said, what are we really talking about here?  How much time?  Someone could go through the guide and make it more detailed in a matter of hours.  2 to 3 hours tops.  Tell you what - I will make it worth that person's while.  Time is money, so it would be a good trade - especially considering the amount of time it would save me.

For someone that is new to modding following STEP without a video guide/step-by-step instructions and does not have any of the mods downloaded, I think my original guess of 30 hours is accurate. But hell, I'd make a video guide or step-by-step instructions if you payed me well. xD But that would require much more than 2 to 3 hours to do. Making a video guide would involve a lot of recording/video editing and writing down all the step-by-step instructions would take very long as well.


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#40 ray0071

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Posted 09 August 2015 - 12:35 AM

You guys should have gotten me to write the tutorial.  A 5 year old could have understand it.  Not sure if that reflects positively or negatively on me? :P

 

Money for a video guide?  Honestly, I would gladly donate money for it.  If it saves me time, then it is worth it. 


Edited by ray0071, 09 August 2015 - 12:43 AM.

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#41 SynthetikHD

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Posted 09 August 2015 - 12:57 AM

As the authors have said, they did not intend to write the guide for those without modding experience. They wrote the guide for those that have knowledge of modding and the tools used. While I would have preferred the step-by-step approach over this design choice, I wholeheartedly understand why this choice was made as writing the guide at such a basic level where all steps are listed would have taken a much longer time.

 

As for a video guide? That is definitely something that I could do. I have video recording/editing software and am experienced with them. However, it would take a long time to make a whole video series covering the entire guide. But it is definitely a possibility for me to do.


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#42 phazer11

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Posted 09 August 2015 - 01:47 AM

Users donating for a video guide (or anything for that matter)? I'll believe it when I see it.



#43 DoubleYou

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Posted 09 August 2015 - 07:27 AM

A hint is if you click the FileTree button you get a nice explanation of hiding files in MO.



#44 Nozzer66

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Posted 09 August 2015 - 07:08 PM

Unfortunately when I see video guides, I pretty much cringe and walk away. I find it about 900 times easier to see things written down.

When I stumbled across STEP a while ago, the first thing I did was read the guide numerous times, check out info on the tools I was going to have to use, and set aside a full weekend.

Unfortunately there's no real way to make things quicker aside from being 100% confident you know what you need to do before you even try it.
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#45 TechAngel85

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Posted 09 August 2015 - 07:56 PM

Nice work on responding to all the feedback. You can use this link, as it cuts off the video when he is done explaining the relevant part.

Thanks for the updated link. I added it to the instructions.




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