Difficult to Understand

[ray0071]

If I could make a suggestion it would be to make the guide easier to understand.  

Example:  2.B Clean the Update ESM - I got stuck on it because what the instruction were stating was not what I was encountering with Mod Organizer.  

 

When someone knowledgeable creates a guide, they can tend to skip over details which they assume others know.  For those who rely heavily on the guide, this is a huge problem.  

 

To be clear - I appreciate the work everyone has put into this project.  Huge respect to all of you.  My comments are just my own personal views/feedback.

 

RayT

 

[TechAngel85]

The instructions are perfect for STEP, if you're following STEP. The billboards are included in the STEP Texture Compilation. So as long as you're following instructions, you don't need to worry about the billboards. I do believe we say at the top of the Guide that users should be reading the ReadMes:

 

Read the ReadMe and other mod-related documentation that comes packaged with most mods. This includes the mod description on the Nexus. If the mod author has seen fit and taken time to create these reference materials, then they are relevant and important in the eyes of the mod author. This means that they are relevant and important to you!

 

And if I recall correctly, the ReadMe for the STEP Texture Compilation tells you:

========== Tree Billiards and LODs for DynDOLOD ====================================================
Included in this compilation are some of the files needed for Dynamic Distant Objects LOD (DynDOLOD) in regards to STEP. These files are located in:
\meshes\Terrain
\textures\terrain

However, I will apologize for this one because I just checked and it appears the ReadMe has been left out of that compilation by mistake. This will be fixed.

 

No, Gopher uses another process than STEP. That video just gives you a general idea of how it is done. Follow the directions we provide.

[z929669]

What about the people that want to use STEP but lack the experience of modding to do so? You cannot tell someone that is new to modding to simply "read the manual" of MO and then expect them to flawlessly install 200+ mods.

 

Is there any way STEP can accommodate for these people that wish to use STEP but lack experience? I'm not saying STEP NEEDS to accommodate for these people. I have not suggested anything so far and have only said my thoughts. I'm just the new kid around here and I'm just curious on others' thoughts about this.

 

Do you just tell people that don't know what they are doing to read the manual and come back when they decide to learn the basics? Or do you simply send them away and say, "STEP isn't for you and you can't use it. You need to know what you are doing to use STEP."

We tell them to read the manual (RTM) ... that is why we wrote the ancillary guides, provide links to more information, and provide a forum for discussion (and all of the constant maintenance that goes into keeping all of this relevant). STEP (this site) never intended to allow those completely new to modding to mod their setup without  prerequisite knowledge/experience. The expectation is that users RTM and learn the basics of modding before they expect to successfully tackle STEP or any other modding guide.

 

We all started out knowing nothing about modding. Some of us did RTM (when there really wasn't any manual, BTW), and compiled what we learned. Nowadays, you will not find any comprehensive/consistent source of information about modding Skyrim (or any Bethesda games) outside of STEP (except maybe TESCosi, which was originally done by TomLong, but has since been revived by others). We have drastically simplified the process of learning how to mod, so we expect due diligence on the part of the user. It's a "right of passage" as much as a practicality with respect to an efficient use of our (the STEP maintainers') personal time.

 

I wish those that felt modding was too complex had tried it back in 2006! Back then, Wrye Mash/Bash was what you used to install mods (or you simply copied them into skyrim/data) ... and Wrye's mod managers were far more complex to learn/use than MO.

 

Modding is a technical learning experience, a pastime, a challenge, a culture ... it's a community effort here at STEP, and I think we have made modding methods/tools far more transparent than they ever were. You can use our resources to create the type of guides you want ... and on this site if you want.

[brokenpaine]

Indeed. I think the STEP guide is great. I love the Layout, makes it very easy to navigate, I may have memorized it by now. Besides once you get it going everyone will tweak it to their liking. Could you guys imagine Micheal of GamerPoets doing a video tutorial for Step? He would probably die. Only worth it if people would truly support his efforts.  Most problems I see with people are with getting tesedit/skse/skyUI/ENB working. Being at the beginning of the process scares many noobs away I imagine. lol

It's a "right of passage" as much as a practicality with respect to an efficient use of our (the STEP maintainers') personal time.

Modding is a technical learning experience, a pastime, a challenge, a culture ... it's a community effort here at STEP, and I think we have made modding methods/tools far more transparent than they ever were. You can use our resources to create the type of guides you want ... and on this site if you want.

Well said. Very well said. Right of Passage? Wow I'm kind of proud of myself now. :..)

 

PS:I gave up modding morrowind due to lack of info online at the time. If you were around back then. Kudos man kudos :)

[ray0071]

You guys need to explain the whole Bashed patch and Dynolod step better. Like do we need to download billboards like Gopher said in the video? No mention of billboards whatsoever in the guide. I was so confused about it, and I am still not sure if I did it right. Also does the Bashed patch go after Dual Sheath Redux and its  Output, FNIS and its Output and Dynolod and its outputs? And what about that TE5Lodgen? Also Gopher said  "the developer version of TES5Edit called XEdit" Is that another version of Tes5Edit we need to download?

I am having the same questions/issues.  The rest of the guide is a cake-walk in comparison to 2.N Patches.

Easily the most confusing part of the entire guide in my view. 

Edited August 16, 2015 by ray0071

[ray0071]

Some of you might not like what I have to say - but it is my honest opinion.

 

STEP in its current state is one of the most confusing and frustrating guides I have ever come across in my life.

 

The amount of time I have spent, struggled to work through this guide is ridiculous.

Some of you state you are unwilling to hold people by the hand, insinuating that perhaps we are intellectually incapable or lazy.  I found the statement to be insulting, and suspect it is done in order to cloud what the real issue here is - the shortcomings of the guide. And by the way in the past I have successfully installed FCOM, and even STEP a few times (when it was easier to understand) - so I don't think it is fair to say only those who are really green etc will have difficulty.

 

In my view the guide is harder to understand and more confusing than previous versions.  Perhaps those very familiar with all the mods etc might be able to navigate through it, but I would venture for the vast majority of people like myself this is far from the case.

 

What I don't understand is why the pushback when people ask for more details.  What exactly is the problem with you guys doing that?  The only one I can see is: Time - but then how much time are we talking?  Does it really take that long to go through the guide and make it more clear?

 

I get that you guys are spending your free time to do this and to that end I am very appreciative.  That said, my time is also valuable, and I don't think it is unreasonable for me to vent my frustration at the current state of the guide.  Honestly, had I known from the start how difficult the guide had become to understand - I would never have even made the effort to begin with.

 

Ray

Edited August 16, 2015 by ray0071

[Greg]

Note that all mods in the left pane should be in the exact order they are installed or created, meaning FNIS Output should be below FNIS, DSR Output should be below Dual Sheath Redux, STEP LOD Textures should be below DynDOLod, and TES5LODGen Output (the output from the Worlds script) should be below STEP LOD Textures.

• Download and install the STEP patches.
• Create the bashed patch so it's below the STEP patches
• Download and install Dual Sheath Redux so it's below the bashed patch.
• Run Dual Sheath Redux (DSR) Patch via Mod Organizer
• Move everything in Overwrite to a mod named DSR Output just below Dual Sheath Redux
• Download and install Better Shaped Weapons.
• Download and install Fores New Idles
• Run GeneratFNISForUsers and move everything in overwrite to a new mod named FNIS Output under FNIS
• Download and install DynDOLOD
• Run the TexGen script and move all generated files to a mod named STEP LOD Textures below DynDOLOD
• Run the Worlds script and move all generated files to a mod named something like TES5LODGen Output below STEP LOD Textures.

Note that I performed the last two steps as follows and saved the output as mods that I can reinstall if necessary:

• Create a folder named TES5LODGen Ouput as per the STEP Guide.
• Run the TexGen script so it creates all the LOD textures per the guide.
• When the script finishes, open the TES5LODGen Output folder in Windows Explorer.
  • Create a folder named Data
  • Move the Textures folder to the Data folder (so the file tree is TES5LODGen Output\Data\Textures)
  • Right click the Data folder, select Send To / Compressed (zipped) folder
  • Rename the created ZIP file to STEP LOD Textures.zip
  • In Mod Organizer, click install mod and select STEP LOD Textures.zip
  • Delete everything in the TES5LODGen Output folder except STEP LOD Textures.zip

• Run the Worlds script so it creates the remainder of the LODs for the worldspace
• When the script finishes, open the TES5LODGen Output folder in Windows Explorer
  • Create a folder named Data
  • Move the Meshes, SKSE, and Textures folders to the Data folder
  • Right click the Data folder, select Send To / Compressed (zipped) folder
  • Rename the created ZIP file to TES5LODGen Output.zip
  • In Mod Organizer, click install mod and select TES5LODGen Output.zip
  • Delete everything in the TES5LODGen Output folder except STEP LOD Textures.zip and TES5LODGen Output.zip

After you have everything set up and working, you can either move the two remaining ZIP files to a safe place or delete them at your discretion.

[TechAngel85]

I can understand the Patch section being the most difficult. It's in that section which users must use tools they are most likely unfamiliar with and intimidated by. With that said, this section probably the most critical section of the Guide since it will make all the mods work together. Without it, users have the Guide just like it was back before this section existed...cluttered with conflicts and issues that were never resolved by STEP (mainly because we didn't have the knowledge to do so back then). STEP is, in fact, the most stable it has ever been. As a result of getting the Guide to this point, we had to make it more difficult than simply tweaking INIs and installing mods like it used to be. I agree with you those past versions were very simple to install, but they had issues most users were unaware of, even issues the STEP Team was unaware of!

 

Fact of the matter is, users need to learn these tools in order to maintain a stable, modded Skyrim. Any mods that are installed on top of STEP should be looked at for conflicts and those conflicts should be resolved, else users could end up with a broken load order, which leads to broken mods, which ends with a broken Skyrim and an unpleasant experience. The rest of the Guide is essentially the same as it has been in the past....tweak INIs and install mods.

 

Some users want it to get better and more simple from their view point. That is great and I think we've proven that we can do this with the right feedback. But those users have to provide that detailed feedback; else all we hear is complaining that the Guide is too hard and are left with nothing to do but say what I'm saying now...give good feedback or suck it up! Yes, that is rather blunt but what else does anyone expect us to be able to do when we have no clue what details of the Guide these users are talking about? This isn't directed solely at any one person, but to all users who are providing this unproductive feedback. It's simply not useful information. We need details!

[ray0071]

2.N Patches is a mind grind.

 

My suggestion:  Create a video for it, cause it is easily the most complicated part of the guide.

Actually, many of the processes in the guide are repeated, so why not just do a video for one process and people can refer to it for all the others?

Honestly, a handful of videos is all it would take to make STEP much easier to follow.

 

Not sure what else I could offer in the form of a suggestion.  I think without a detailed guide, or videos, many will encounter difficulties as I have.

The only negative in my suggestion about creating videos is the time required to do them.  To that end, I have already offered to donate money - and I think that is a fair trade cause time is money.  I spent 20-30 plus hours trying to get through this guide and look what I have to show for it - nothing.  Do you think I would spend another 30 hours doing this all over again?  No - because I just don't have that time availability and so sadly, after waiting a year for this release, then spending many hours trying to get through STEP -my experience ends on a sour note.

 

Anyway, this is where I make my exit.

Happy Gaming.

 

Ray

[ray0071]

Hi Greg,  Thanks for the step by step instructions.  You made the effort to write this, so I will point out areas I am having difficulty with - perhaps it can help others.

 

Note that all mods in the left pane should be in the exact order they are installed or created, meaning FNIS Output should be below FNIS, DSR Output should be below Dual Sheath Redux, STEP LOD Textures should be below DynDOLod, and TES5LODGen Output (the output from the Worlds script) should be below STEP LOD Textures.

 

Well in my situation, some mods which should have been there in the left pane did not appear to be.  Figuring perhaps I did not install them or made a mistake in the install, I attempted to install them again.  Did I mess things up by doing so?  Also you are suggested it be in exact order AFTER getting through 2.N Patches - correct?

 

• Download and install the STEP patches.  - check
• Create the bashed patch so it's below the STEP patches - check
• Download and install Dual Sheath Redux so it's below the bashed patch. - check
• Run Dual Sheath Redux (DSR) Patch via Mod Organizer - check (this proved difficult because it needs a patch fix)
• Move everything in Overwrite to a mod named DSR Output just below Dual Sheath Redux - messed this part up.
• Download and install Better Shaped Weapons. - check
• Download and install Fores New Idles- check
• Run GeneratFNISForUsers and move everything in overwrite to a new mod named FNIS Output under FNIS - messed this part up.
• Download and install DynDOLOD - check
• Run the TexGen script and move all generated files to a mod named STEP LOD Textures below DynDOLOD - messed this part up
• Run the Worlds script and move all generated files to a mod named something like TES5LODGen Output below STEP LOD Textures.- totally lost now.

Note that I performed the last two steps as follows and saved the output as mods that I can reinstall if necessary:

• Create a folder named TES5LODGen Ouput as per the STEP Guide.
• Run the TexGen script so it creates all the LOD textures per the guide.
• When the script finishes, open the TES5LODGen Output folder in Windows Explorer.
  • Create a folder named Data
  • Move the Textures folder to the Data folder (so the file tree is TES5LODGen Output\Data\Textures)
  • Right click the Data folder, select Send To / Compressed (zipped) folder
  • Rename the created ZIP file to STEP LOD Textures.zip
  • In Mod Organizer, click install mod and select STEP LOD Textures.zip
  • Delete everything in the TES5LODGen Output folder except STEP LOD Textures.zip

Wow...  ever partake in a conversation where the subject is beyond your ability to understand so you just stay quiet?  That is the feeling I have when reading this last part. 

• Run the Worlds script so it creates the remainder of the LODs for the worldspace
• When the script finishes, open the TES5LODGen Output folder in Windows Explorer
  • Create a folder named Data
  • Move the Meshes, SKSE, and Textures folders to the Data folder
  • Right click the Data folder, select Send To / Compressed (zipped) folder
  • Rename the created ZIP file to TES5LODGen Output.zip
  • In Mod Organizer, click install mod and select TES5LODGen Output.zip
  • Delete everything in the TES5LODGen Output folder except STEP LOD Textures.zip and TES5LODGen Output.zip

After you have everything set up and working, you can either move the two remaining ZIP files to a safe place or delete them at your discretion.

Repeat of my last comment.

 

Thanks Greg. Really your effort to assist is appreciated - but clearly there is something I need to know which the guide assumed I already do.

 

As I stated in my previous post - a video would go a long long way to making this part less painful.

 

Edited August 17, 2015 by ray0071

[ray0071]

I can understand the Patch section being the most difficult. It's in that section which users must use tools they are most likely unfamiliar with and intimidated by. With that said, this section probably the most critical section of the Guide since it will make all the mods work together. Without it, users have the Guide just like it was back before this section existed...cluttered with conflicts and issues that were never resolved by STEP (mainly because we didn't have the knowledge to do so back then). STEP is, in fact, the most stable it has ever been. As a result of getting the Guide to this point, we had to make it more difficult than simply tweaking INIs and installing mods like it used to be. I agree with you those past versions were very simple to install, but they had issues most users were unaware of, even issues the STEP Team was unaware of!

 

Fact of the matter is, users need to learn these tools in order to maintain a stable, modded Skyrim. Any mods that are installed on top of STEP should be looked at for conflicts and those conflicts should be resolved, else users could end up with a broken load order, which leads to broken mods, which ends with a broken Skyrim and an unpleasant experience. The rest of the Guide is essentially the same as it has been in the past....tweak INIs and install mods.

 

Some users want it to get better and more simple from their view point. That is great and I think we've proven that we can do this with the right feedback. But those users have to provide that detailed feedback; else all we hear is complaining that the Guide is too hard and are left with nothing to do but say what I'm saying now...give good feedback or suck it up! Yes, that is rather blunt but what else does anyone expect us to be able to do when we have no clue what details of the Guide these users are talking about? This isn't directed solely at any one person, but to all users who are providing this unproductive feedback. It's simply not useful information. We need details!

I actually agree with much of what you stated.  I just think the solution is to add more details to the guide, make it easier to understand or the best solution to create videos, especially for the difficulty/confusing parts. 

[Nozzer66]

I think the solution is to read more and do some research on what you're trying to use.

[ray0071]

I think the solution is to read more and do some research on what you're trying to use.

How is that a solution for people with time availability issues or for those are not so tech/modding savvy?  

I think the best solution is one which makes STEP easier to understand and thereby accessible to more people.

The only factor preventing this from happening is the time.

 

The bottom line is that the people who developed STEP know it best.  They are the experts and as such it would be far efficient for them to create an easier guide than it would be for people like me to learn more about modding.  I am a reasonable person, and as such I would be willing to pay for this to be done.

 

Consider - I just spent 30 plus hours trying to get through STEP and have nothing to show for it.  If someone could offer me my 30 hours back for a price of say $50 - I would take that deal in a heartbeat!  I would venture many others would feel as I do - that they do not have the time availability, the patience etc to make it through this guide.  As we get older, it is tough balancing between work, family, and often by the time the weekend arrives we are exhausted both physically and mentally.  I think it is unrealistic to ask these type of people to sit down for dozens or hours, engross themselves in such a tedious process.  

 

I do not believe my view is one of the minority.  Among my friends there are those who have played Skyrim and would be very much interested in STEP.  I guarantee you however, that if it meant going through what I just did - they would never do it.  They would however pay if it was simpler and thus less time consuming.

 

Perhaps there is a way to charge for a easier guide?  Maybe charge for the video?  Not sure the legalities but something to consider.

 

I know my offer of $50-100 is not a lot - but it is a start.  I think many others would also be willing to compensate you guys for your efforts.

Edited August 17, 2015 by ray0071

[TechAngel85]

Remember be saying to search for GamerPoets? For the Patch section:

 

STEP Patches - We're creating an installer for this that is dummy proof. The installer will tell you what you can install. No knowledge needed. Will be released next version of STEP.

Bashed Patch - Video is here

Dual Sheath Redux - Video is here

Better Shaped Weapons - this one should be easy

Fores New Idles - Video is here

DynDOLOD - Video is here

 

So, are you not going into the mod pages on the wiki because all the videos are there on the mod pages...

[ray0071]

I was not aware that such videos were compatible with STEP - unless a link was provided for them in the guide.  Am I mistaken?

[TechAngel85]

All the videos are linked from the mod pages on the wiki (when you click the Detailed Information links). If you weren't going into the mod pages, then I completely understand that you found the entire process difficult.