Mods *not* to clean with TES5Edit

[Naoko]

So, after reading/watching tutorials for TES5Edit and using it to clean my main .esm files, I got the impression that I should use it to clean pretty much everything except skyrim.esm, the unofficial patches and a very small number of mods that contain intentional dirty edits.

 

I'm wondering if there's a comprehensive list of things I should definitely NOT clean (in order to avoid breaking them or creating conflicts where there would be none, etc.), or if that list is so small that it shouldn't be a problem?

 

I've read through several places/guides already, like here https://www.creationkit.com/TES5Edit_Cleaning_Guide_-_TES5Edit#Quick_List_of_What_Not_to_Clean

 

and here https://www.creationkit.com/Skyrim_Dirty_Plugins_List#Mods_You_Should_NOT_Clean

 

but the number of things really does seem quite small.

 

Also - I understand that it's usually very important to clean mods in order to avoid conflicts and potential in-game wonkiness/CTDs, but although I just started attempting to mod Skyrim for basic stability/bug-fixes, I did end up with a bunch of stuff in my Mod Organizer folder that I'm not sure should be cleaned or not. There's an SKSE-Scripts mod, as well as PapyrusUtil, Distant Decal Fix and Stable uGridsToLoad in MO so far, and I don't know if they require cleaning. *the mods in the screenshot haven't really been organized yet, as I'm still in the process of installing new ones and figuring out what to clean or not.

 

Apologies if this was explained elsewhere and I missed it >_< I just want to make sure I don't break something on my first attempt, before continuing. :)

Edited July 31, 2015 by Naoko

[pStyl3]

Look at the "FULL - NAME" rows of those outlined 3 records in TES5Edit - in the "Remove Interior Fog V2 - Full Version.esp" plugin, not in "Skyrim.esm" - they are yellow (and therefore NOT green), and that's why, via definition, for you these records of "Remove Interior Fog V2 - Full Version.esp" are technically not ITM's, so records that are identical to the corresponding records in the master plugins.

 

The entries in your Skyrim.esm are as follows:

 

Elhagyatott börtön

Nyugatszél  sasfészek

Neugrad Eród, Börtön

 

That's hungarian, is that correct? These entries do not match the corresponding entries in your mod-plugin, therefore those records are technically not ITM's.

 

What you can do, is to remove these 3 records from "Remove Interior Fog V2 - Full Version.esp" manually, which should resolve the situation.

 

Regarding TES5Edit's "Mark Modified" feature, it just forces TES5Edit to safe the plugin upon closing TES5Edit. For you, this has apparently resulted in a change of the size of the plugin .. therefore the CRC value of the plugin changed, which then resulted in LOOT stopping to warn about the plugin's ITM's. LOOT assigns these kinds of warning on a CRC-based check, therefore if the actual CRC value and the CRC value that is stored in LOOT's masterlist do not match, LOOT has "no way of telling if that plugin is dirty or not" .. expressed very circumscribed.

Edited September 20, 2015 by pStyl3

[zilav]

Since the language of your Skyrim differs from the plugin, you can first try to copy localized names from master over to the plugin. Right click on plugin, apply script "Restore record names from master". Then try to clean.

[Greg]

What I do not understand that what happened with the esp file when I accidently clicked at Mark Modified.

Right Click on an esp file. After that my ESP file size reduced from 66KB -> 63KB

 

But I haven't done anything else than before several times with that esp file.

Clean ITM records process. General ITM cleaning process.

 

+ right click at the .esp file -> Mark Modified and saved.

 

This is what I do not understand, what does it mean:

 

"

"Mark Modified – It will mark the currently selected node and all child nodes as modified. To minimize the chance that XEdit breaks something that it doesn't fully understand when saving, only records that are marked as modified are assembled field by field, sub record by sub record. Any record or even complete group that is not marked as modified is simply copied unchanged as a blob of bytes from the old module file into the newly saved one."

 

https://www.creationk...t_Documentation

 

Sry, do not really got what does it mean. :(

My modding and english knowledge is limited... "

 

I don't know wheter is it good, or not but THIS removed the ITMs warning from LOOT.

If someone could explain that some kind of user friendly, I would be glad.

 

I have never used that before. Now, just accidently.

 

Thanks!

When you save a plugin with TES5Edit, two things happen:

• Any records that are not modified are copied exactly from the original plugin to the saved plugin to ensure these records are not modified in any way.
• Any records that are modified (or that you mark as modified) are written to the saved plugin using the current version of the record in memory based on TES5Edit's interpretation of that record.

What this means is that you marked one or more records as modified, so it's quite possible that TES5Edit compressed these records in the saved mod whereas these records in the original mod were not compressed. This would explain why the mod you saved is smaller than the original mod you opened.

 

Also note that this same action (saving the mod with modified records) causes the CRC of the mod you saved to change, so LOOT considers this a different mod from the one in LOOT's masterlist so it does not show the message indicating the mod needs to be cleaned.

[kranazoli]

Look at the "FULL - NAME" rows of those outlined 3 records in TES5Edit - in the "Remove Interior Fog V2 - Full Version.esp" plugin, not in "Skyrim.esm" - they are yellow (and therefore NOT green), and that's why, via definition, for you these records of "Remove Interior Fog V2 - Full Version.esp" are technically not ITM's, so records that are identical to the corresponding records in the master plugins.

 

The entries in your Skyrim.esm are as follows:

 

 

That's hungarian, is that correct? These entries do not match the corresponding entries in your mod-plugin, therefore those records are technically not ITM's.

 

What you can do, is to remove these 3 records from "Remove Interior Fog V2 - Full Version.esp" manually, which should resolve the situation.

 

Regarding TES5Edit's "Mark Modified" feature, it just forces TES5Edit to safe the plugin upon closing TES5Edit. For you, this has apparently resulted in a change of the size of the plugin .. therefore the CRC value of the plugin changed, which then resulted in LOOT stopping to warn about the plugin's ITM's. LOOT assigns these kinds of warning on a CRC-based check, therefore if the actual CRC value and the CRC value that is stored in LOOT's masterlist do not match, LOOT has "no way of telling if that plugin is dirty or not" .. expressed very circumscribed.

Okay, so now I loaded my esp without the Hungarian language mod, which is just an MO mod.

And yes, in this case I have found those ITMs:

 

Removing: FortNeugrad02 "Fort Neugrad Prison" [CELL:0001CE8A]

[Removing "Identical to Master" records done]  Processed Records: 389, Removed Records: 3, Elapsed Time: 00:00

[undeleting and Disabling References done]  Processed Records: 386, Undeleted Records: 0, Elapsed Time: 00:00

 

"What you can do, is to remove these 3 records from "Remove Interior Fog V2 - Full Version.esp" manually, which should resolve the situation."

 

It's a little bit complicated to me. I have cleaned lots of mod where my Hungraian language pack was enabled.

Is it bad?!

 

It would be better to disable Hungarian language mod under cleaning?

 

Mark Modified: I see, CRC, etc, ... Ok! Thank you!

 

Now, I am a little bit confused about other plugins which I cleaned via Tes5Edit when my Hungarian language pack was enabled.

Do I have to do anything now?

 

And what if I remove Hungarian Language pack, clean ITMs from Remove Interior fog v2 original, and after enable language pack again?

 

So, using language pack now a little bit confused me. :(

 

"What you can do, is to remove these 3 records from "Remove Interior Fog V2 - Full Version.esp"

 

Exactly which 3 records should I remove? I guess I got it.

 

Sry! I haven't thought that my language pack is the guilty one.

That was very obvious for me to use my language pack!

 

Now I have a question:

 

I have cleaned several mods where my Hungarian language pack was enabled in MO.

ITM issues, and other ones. Is there anything that I can do now with this mods?

 

I mean all of the official ESM files, and other mods as well.

 

Cloud that type of mod cleaning cause any issue? Bug? And so on... ?

 

I must confess, now I'm upset stomach. And afraid of I have done something bad thing. F*cking language pack. But, I didn't read anywhere if I am right that language pack can cause issues.

 

Now, what I've done with Remove Interior Fog V2 - Full Version.esp:

 

1.) Reverted back the original version of the mod

2.) Disabled my language pack

3.) Now, I could clean those 3 ITM records

4.) Enabled my language pack again via MO

 

Is this good?

 

Please guys, I need some support :

 

1.) How should I clean mods with different language pack enabled in MO?

2.) Do I have to do anything with mods, that I have cleaned by Tes5Edit while Hungarian language pack was enabled?

3.) And anything useful ideas, tips, and so on, ...

pStyl3: I really love your support. A big very thank for your goog eyes. :)

Honestly, I was thinking about everything, use different Tes5Edit but language pack.

Grrrrrr!  

Edited September 20, 2015 by kranazoli

[kranazoli]

When you save a plugin with TES5Edit, two things happen:

• Any records that are not modified are copied exactly from the original plugin to the saved plugin to ensure these records are not modified in any way.
• Any records that are modified (or that you mark as modified) are written to the saved plugin using the current version of the record in memory based on TES5Edit's interpretation of that record.

What this means is that you marked one or more records as modified, so it's quite possible that TES5Edit compressed these records in the saved mod whereas these records in the original mod were not compressed. This would explain why the mod you saved is smaller than the original mod you opened.

 

Also note that this same action (saving the mod with modified records) causes the CRC of the mod you saved to change, so LOOT considers this a different mod from the one in LOOT's masterlist so it does not show the message indicating the mod needs to be cleaned.

Dear Greg,

 

Also thank you for you as well, for this explanation.

Because totally accidently this option "solved" my issue (LOOT warning) is it adviced to use this function, for instance any mods?

 

Still fon't really know wheter it is a good tool, or not.

 

"so it's quite possible that TES5Edit compressed these records in the saved mod whereas these records in the original mod were not compressed. This would explain why the mod you saved is smaller than the original mod you opened."

 

But, that's a good thing, or not?

 

For instance:

 

Now, what I've done with Remove Interior Fog V2 - Full Version.esp:

 

1.) Reverted back the original version of the mod

2.) Disabled my language pack

3.) Now, I could clean those 3 ITM records

 

+1) I could also use that Mark Modified option, feature on that cleaned mod, and the mod size again got smaller.

 

Why do not we use that tool in general?

I guess it has a reason, because I have never read about this feature in connection with cleaning mod, but atm it seems to me maybe a useful step.

 

Thank you!

Edited September 20, 2015 by kranazoli

[GrantSP]

This has proven to be a truly "colourful" discussion! 

[kranazoli]

Are you jealous?

[pStyl3]

No problem kranazoli. Regarding you're language pack .. I can't give you a definitive answer on that, as I do not use such a mod myself. But I would think (may I be corrected in case I am wrong on this) that you are most of the time just fine leaving it on while cleaning. Because after all, if you come across this rare case, that LOOT tells you a certain plugin is dirty but after firing up TES5Edit you cannot find any ITM's, it normally can only mean one of two or three things.

 

- LOOT's informations are old/not correct

- The user uses an old version of TES5Edit, which may or may not have something to do with not finding proclaimed ITM's

- The master files, to which the plugin in question is compared too, differ somehow (to the master files that were present when the original 'dirty info' was found and incorporated into LOOT's masterlist)

 

If it is latter one, and the master file is one of the official master plugins, it probably means that some records in the plugin does have entries in some other language .. just like in your case.

 

And that I would think is not something 'bad' or 'dangerous'. LOOT tells you there are some ITM records, so "records that does not change something because the same record is already in the master file of that plugin" .. you have those records in the plugin in question aswell, but if you can't find them via TES5Edit it means, in this case, they change the name of something. Which is not harmful, in my opinion. Unwanted maybe, but not harmful.

 

So .. bottom line? In case you cannot find ITM's that LOOT tells you are there ..

- check if you have the latest version of TES5Edit

- check if you language pack has something to do with it

 

And I also don't think you need to recheck every mod you have cleaned until now. And after all that said, deleted references are either way more important to "undelete and disable" then deleting ITM's. And those, so deleted references, are uneffected from entries in other languages in master plugins.

[kranazoli]

No problem kranazoli. Regarding you're language pack .. I can't give you a definitive answer on that, as I do not use such a mod myself. But I would think (may I be corrected in case I am wrong on this) that you are most of the time just fine leaving it on while cleaning. Because after all, if you come across this rare case, that LOOT tells you a certain plugin is dirty but after firing up TES5Edit you cannot find any ITM's, it normally can only mean one of two or three things.

 

- LOOT's informations are old/not correct

- The user uses an old version of TES5Edit, which may or may not have something to do with not finding proclaimed ITM's

- The master files, to which the plugin in question is compared too, differ somehow (to the master files that were present when the original 'dirty info' was found and incorporated into LOOT's masterlist)

 

If it is latter one, and the master file is one of the official master plugins, it probably means that some records in the plugin does have entries in some other language .. just like in your case.

 

And that I would think is not something 'bad' or 'dangerous'. LOOT tells you there are some ITM records, so "records that does not change something because the same record is already in the master file of that plugin" .. you have those records in the plugin in question aswell, but if you can't find them via TES5Edit it means, in this case, they change the name of something. Which is not harmful, in my opinion. Unwanted maybe, but not harmful.

 

So .. bottom line? In case you cannot find ITM's that LOOT tells you are there ..

- check if you have the latest version of TES5Edit

- check if you language pack has something to do with it

 

And I also don't think you need to recheck every mod you have cleaned until now. And after all that said, deleted references are either way more important to "undelete and disable" then deleting ITM's. And those, so deleted references, are uneffected from entries in other languages in master plugins.

Hi,

 

Without your support and your knowledge and your eagle eye :) I would have never ever find out what was going on. I thought lots of things, and tried a lot stuff but that one, using different language (which is nothing more, just an mod in MO) could cause that kind of issue.

 

Really thanks again!

[Mator]

LOOT database is filled with manual user reports, LOOT itself has no idea about the presense and amount of ITM or UDR records. Several things could happened here

1) the original report by someone was wrong but got included into LOOT database without any check by someone

2) new clean version of plugin has been released but LOOT database still contains report for an old version, which again should be removed manually by someone

 

Anything that LOOT shows you is only a hint, not something you should blindly trust and take action. I don't know who exactly posts reports into LOOT database and is there any "quality" control at all. I admit I never read STEP, but this must be clealy stated there for sure.

One of many reasons to not like LOOT.  #iHateLOOT

 

[kranazoli]

One of many reasons to not like LOOT.  #iHateLOOT

 

Do you know something better?

[GrantSP]

Do you know something better?

I'll get in first before @Mator and preempt what he'll say:

 

"The human brain"

[kranazoli]

I'll get in first before @Mator and preempt what he'll say:

 

"The human brain"

In this case, can I send you my mod list and load order every time?!

[GrantSP]

In this case, can I send you my mod list and load order every time?!

No. But you can send them to @Mator!

 

Only kidding. What he means, from what I have seen him say on various occasions is, humans should be able to decide what mods need to go together and whether A goes before B or not. Tools are only as good as the algorithms used and they will never be as good as a human's brain.

 

Really, once you get your game modded, you should be only adding mods one at a time and making these choices at installation time, this makes it easy to do. It's only when you are making large installs, like you are now with STEP, that it seems like a large task.

 

If I may be so bold, from the questions I have seen you ask in various forums, you are well on your way to understanding the intricacies of mod order and soon these sort of things will be second nature to you.

[hishutup]

Could something be automated?

Yes but the cost would be high.

What type of cost is that?

One or more, of many: dev time, complexity, time to process, etc.